800.156

[iwire]

There is no way the NEC can force a homeowner to have phone service.

We we cancelled our POTs line long ago, strictly cell phones now.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

There is no way the NEC can force a homeowner to have phone service.

We we cancelled our POTs line long ago, strictly cell phones now.

That is correct but the NEC can require one jack be installed in the home whether it is activated or not is not the concern of the NEC. As mentioned we do our part and the inspector is finished.

I think that with the use of cell phones it is not uncommon to see people not install land lines- esp the young kids. However in our rural areas and even in town in some areas the cell service is not optimal so people do tend to have a land line as a back up.

It's not a bad idea to have the line installed and connected at the demarc so the owner has at least 911 capabilities.

 

[iwire]

That is correct but the NEC can require one jack be installed in the home whether it is activated or not is not the concern of the NEC. As mentioned we do our part and the inspector is finished.

And as mentioned, as written that section cannot be complied with if there is no demarcation point.

I think that with the use of cell phones it is not uncommon to see people not install land lines- esp the young kids. However in our rural areas and even in town in some areas the cell service is not optimal so people do tend to have a land line as a back up.

So the entire NEC using public needs to do this because it is good for people in rural areas?

It's not a bad idea to have the line installed and connected at the demarc so the owner has at least 911 capabilities.

And again, that assumes there will be a land line installed by a utility and again that is up to the homeowner to decide.

I think it is pretty clear you and I are not going to agree about this and the NFPAs continuous movement to a design guide more than a safety code.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

It seems like we are far apart but we are not. I agree that the NEC is moving toward a design manual, especially in this case. I am just saying that we run the wire over to the service area where the demarc may be-- it is never there when we finish the job so the utility will connect our wire. If there never is a demarc then of course this cannot be done.

As written this section could be interpreted to mean that there must be a demarc at the home. The NEC forces home owner to do lots of things they do not want so I could see this as another way of enforcing that a land line service be installed. I doubt that anyone ever goes that far with this interpretation.

The entire NEC often writes rules because of a few instances of death or safety issues so why does it surprise you about the rural areas. Besides it is not just the rural areas that are affected. Many homes in town are foregoing the land line but the jacks in those cases are usually there.

 

[infinity]

I think that we all agree that this section needs to be deleted in the 2017 due to it's uselessness. :slaphead:

 

[don_resqcapt19]

The utility will bring the phone line to the home whether or not the home owner requests it simply because they want their service available when a new owner arrives or when the home owner changes their mind. They do not want to have to negotiate walkways , driveways, etc so....

...

Without the property owner's permission the telco has no legal right to install lines on my property. If they did that to me and I had not requested a phone line, I would have them charged with criminal trespass.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I have never had a problem complying with the rule. Stub out the cat5 next to the service equipment with the inter-bonding device on the GEC. So now I have completed my part, if an inspector wanted to be anal its now on the home owner to do their part and have the line brought to the home, pay me.

For what its worth I was told in a code change class, and it dose make sense, the reason behind this was the proliferation of cell phone use. In an emergency the 911 system can locate your address with a land line but there is the a chance they cannot with a cell phone. So as a cost cutting measure if you really didn't need a land line you can have a "children's" phone put in. No bells and whistles, no long distance just plain local calling for a low price. This will comply with code and give 911 a solid address in case of emergency.

If there is no physical demark on the building, you have not complied with the actual code rule.

This is clearly a case of the code overstepping its authority.

As an Emergency Telephone System Board member, I fully understand the 911 issues, but there is not and never well be a rule that says someone has to have "landline" phone service. The fact that the code requires a length of cable to be installed does not change this. Also the location information from the phone companies, is so poor that the Illinois Commerce Commission rules require that the local 911 system verify the address information for at least 40% of the landlines before they place the a new 911 system into use.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...
As written this section could be interpreted to mean that there must be a demarc at the home. The NEC forces home owner to do lots of things they do not want so I could see this as another way of enforcing that a land line service be installed. I doubt that anyone ever goes that far with this interpretation.
...

I read it the opposite way...the rule to provide the communications outlet and cabling only applies if there is a demarc physically installed. No demarc = no communications outlet.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Without the property owner's permission the telco has no legal right to install lines on my property. If they did that to me and I had not requested a phone line, I would have them charged with criminal trespass.

You are on hard core dude. I am not sure this is ever an issue as it does not cost the customer anything so it does not hurt and its there if you change your mind

If there is no physical demark on the building, you have not complied with the actual code rule.

As an Emergency Telephone System Board member, I fully understand the 911 issues, but there is not and never well be a rule that says someone has to have "landline" phone service. The fact that the code requires a length of cable to be installed does not change this. Also the location information from the phone companies, is so poor that the Illinois Commerce Commission rules require that the local 911 system verify the address information for at least 40% of the landlines before they place the a new 911 system into use.

I agree-- there are many people who use cell service and will not have a landline and even with the jack operational it does not insure the home owner will use a phone to plug into it.

This is clearly a case of the code overstepping its authority.

Well we better get used to it as the nec seems to clearly overstep its bounds and has become somewhat of a design manual. It states it is not intended to be a design manual but...it's intent does not mean it will not be :weeping:

This Code is not intended as a design specification or an instruction manual for untrained persons.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

You are on hard core dude. I am not sure this is ever an issue as it does not cost the customer anything so it does not hurt and its there if you change your mind

It is just not something that happens around here..the only time any utility is extended to a home is when the property owner requests it.

They will install the back bone facilities on public property or within a utility easement that was granted when the area was subdivided for development. That easement does not normally extend to the building, it just runs on the edge of the property. Without a request for service, a utility has no business running anything on private property outside of a granted easement.

The only utilities that are required, by our locally adopted codes, to be extended to a dwelling unit are water and sewer. Anything else is optional.

I agree-- there are many people who use cell service and will not have a landline and even with the jack operational it does not insure the home owner will use a phone to plug into it.

Even with an actual phone connection, in many areas the phone companies are switching over to IP based phone service which is not near as reliable of a hardwired connection to a central office. With a hardwired connection to the central office there are large battery banks and a generator to provide phone service in the event of an extended power outage. With IP based phone service, there are a number of pieces of equipment that require battery back up, but the back-up is a few hours, as compared to many days for a hard wired connection to the central office.

Most cell phone systems are more reliable than an IP based phone line.

Well over 70% of 911 calls come in via cell phones now and that number is going up each year.

Well we better get used to it as the nec seems to clearly overstep its bounds and has become somewhat of a design manual. It states it is not intended to be a design manual but...it's intent does not mean it will not be :weeping:

It is just like all of the homeland security nonsense...as long as we keep looking the other way and ignoring the rights that our government is trampling on, it will continue to happen.

 

[infinity]

Has anyone ever seen this enforced as being required? Back when I was doing some SFD's no one ever asked where the telephone jack was.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Has anyone ever seen this enforced as being required? Back when I was doing some SFD's no one ever asked where the telephone jack was.

I doubt it but we usually have phone line installed. The inspectors here don't even inspect the phone rough in installation but they should

 

[infinity]

This one is on my list of proposals for 2017, that is deleting this requirement completely.

 

[tom baker]

In the electrical world, an outlet is where a receptacle is installed. So I would say that a communications outlet is where some kind of receptacle (jack) is installed.

 

[ActionDave]

Has anyone ever seen this enforced as being required? Back when I was doing some SFD's no one ever asked where the telephone jack was.

Yes, I had to do it. It was for a get-away cabin up in the mountains where there was no POT service anyway. Completely ridiculous.

I hope your proposal to get rid of this requirement is well received.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Yes, I had to do it. It was for a get-away cabin up in the mountains where there was no POT service anyway. Completely ridiculous.

I hope your proposal to get rid of this requirement is well received.

There were two comments in the ROC to reject this proposal when it first appeared in the 2008 ROP. Those comments did not get even on vote from a panel member.

 

[ActionDave]

There were two comments in the ROC to reject this proposal when it first appeared in the 2008 ROP. Those comments did not get even on vote from a panel member.

Well that stinks. On the one hand we can all try to do something to make the code better with a proposal, then stuff like this comes along and all that there is to say is, "why bother".

 

[infinity]

There were two comments in the ROC to reject this proposal when it first appeared in the 2008 ROP. Those comments did not get even on vote from a panel member.

Technology has changed so much, as well as people's habits regarding the use of land lines, that I think the CMP might actually want to revisit this as a requirement in 2017.

 

[iwire]

Technology has changed so much, as well as people's habits regarding the use of land lines, that I think the CMP might actually want to revisit this as a requirement in 2017.

They will pull the POTs line requirement and add a broadband media outlet requirement in living, family and bedrooms. :roll:

 

[don_resqcapt19]

They will pull the POTs line requirement and add a broadband media outlet requirement in living, family and bedrooms. :roll:

Don't give anyone ideas

A requirement for a POTs line may face heavy resistance from the major telephone companies as they are really starting to push hard to replace POTs with IP based phone service.