A/C Company

Status
Not open for further replies.
Oakey

Oakey

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
I have a customer who had asked me to wire the central A/C... but as it turns out that the A/C company wired it. No biggie I have enough work but I question how they did it.

1)A correct 10/2 to the O/S disconnect with a whip. So far all is good.
2) They didnt use a conn in the ko thru the back
3) A 14/2 uf was run thru the same ko (back) and mashed against the house to the A/C leader to the attic.
4) The same 14/2 was installed on the line terminals of the disconnect which is breaker proteced at 30 amps.
I dont know much on tap rules but is this legal?
 
Oakey said:
I have a customer who had asked me to wire the central A/C... but as it turns out that the A/C company wired it. No biggie I have enough work but I question how they did it.

1)A correct 10/2 to the O/S disconnect with a whip. So far all is good.
2) They didnt use a conn in the ko thru the back
3) A 14/2 uf was run thru the same ko (back) and mashed against the house to the A/C leader to the attic.
4) The same 14/2 was installed on the line terminals of the disconnect which is breaker proteced at 30 amps.
I dont know much on tap rules but is this legal?
Click to expand...

5 Did they have an electrical license (thinking no)
6 did they pull a permit for both electric and there AC work
7 that 14-2 is not fused right.
8 Do that homeowner a favor and save there lives by calling the building departnent.
 
Is it possible that the reason you were called is to insure that the installation is correct?
Is it possible that the AC Company only connected the wiring in order to check their unit?
I would make the installation compliant and hand the homeowner the bill and no comment as to the method that was used before I got there.
 
jwelectric said:
Is it possible that the reason you were called is to insure that the installation is correct?
Is it possible that the AC Company only connected the wiring in order to check their unit?
I would make the installation compliant and hand the homeowner the bill and no comment as to the method that was used before I got there.
Click to expand...

No problem if this was to just start it up but then they needed to remove it.What if the homeowner now figures since its working cancell the EC
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
No problem if this was to just start it up but then they needed to remove it.What if the homeowner now figures since its working cancell the EC
Click to expand...

They didn't cancel, he came, he left, AC unit still not fixed!
Start conversation with homeowner first. Do you want this fixed?
Homeowner says no, call the inspection deppartment.
 
jwelectric said:
They didn't cancel, he came, he left, AC unit still not fixed!
Start conversation with homeowner first. Do you want this fixed?
Homeowner says no, call the inspection deppartment.
Click to expand...

Love to be there when mr inspector shows up.
We all have seen this type of work and somehow it goes unfixed
 
Oakey said:
I have a customer who had asked me to wire the central A/C... but as it turns out that the A/C company wired it. No biggie I have enough work but I question how they did it.

1)A correct 10/2 to the O/S disconnect with a whip. So far all is good.
2) They didnt use a conn in the ko thru the back
3) A 14/2 uf was run thru the same ko (back) and mashed against the house to the A/C leader to the attic.
4) The same 14/2 was installed on the line terminals of the disconnect which is breaker proteced at 30 amps.
I dont know much on tap rules but is this legal?
Click to expand...

Feeder Taps....240.21(B)(1) & (2). NO GO.
Other Things wrong...300.4(B)(1), 110.14(A). 2005 NEC
Just a opinion
steve
 
This is an A/C company who took the money and ran and looks like a permanant setup attempt on there part. They charged him a lot for this elec work and tommorow armed with the above info I will make my case to the homeowner in a polite way. I did his 200 amp service a month ago, so a hack connecting to it half-assed really steams me.

He also had a kitchen cabinet installer hook up his elec stove..(plastic single gang lol). The inspector and I are going to have a talk :)
 
Oakey said:
This is an A/C company who took the money and ran and looks like a permanant setup attempt on there part. They charged him a lot for this elec work and tommorow armed with the above info I will make my case to the homeowner in a polite way. I did his 200 amp service a month ago, so a hack connecting to it half-assed really steams me.

He also had a kitchen cabinet installer hook up his elec stove..(plastic single gang lol). The inspector and I are going to have a talk :)
Click to expand...

Really doesnt matter if they did it temporary or not.Fact is they installed wiring and i will assume with no license or permits.There are plenty of guys that simply dont care about permits or licensing and i hope you do help close this guy down.Far too often the homeowner does not want any inspectors on there property and will except a job for lower price and just pay cash.I use to work for a company that did remodels for a GC that very often pulled no permits.
 
Boy, Y'all kill me...like you have never seen a code violation from someone else before? And Now you get the mentality to "go get them Batman!"
Like, Y'all got no work or nothing better to do than get involved in someone else business?
I'm still unsure what the 14/2 is doimg or going to, that would be the only thing I would check into.

Seriously the BS I see day to day doesn't even phase me anymore and I never say a word. Unless its an immediate fire hazard.
Yesterday it was inside a breaker panel. Breaker panel was replaced, the the old neutral wires coming from/thru the meter was too short to hit the lug. So who ever it was, twisted a #8 into a knot & landed it on the lug. Also, all the grounding conductors were twisted together just like a #2 cable & then they cut it all off, but, left 2 #14 or #12's to hit the ground bar.
The HO told me had someone change out the panel recently. I said, "I see!" and didn't mention a thing.
I still left my "for service call" sticker on ther panel.
But hey! You vigalantes can get involved & call all the inspectors you want. I'm in this business to make money not be the police of the NEC. I leave that to the Inspection department & they are are too busy doing inspections for the legitimate, to be policing the unlicensed hackers.
So what?
 
I def have better things to do than drop a dime on someone. I believe what he did is dangerous IMO, so I just feel obliged to tell the homeowner about it.
 
hillbilly said:
I still left my "for service call" sticker on ther panel.

No way do I leave my name on someone else's crap.
steve
Click to expand...

Really?
Why not?
This was or could be just a small sign of the crap in his house. Something has to fail & hopefully he'll call me. If he calls another EC & they see my sticker on there, oh well, like I care about any other EC's opinions of me? When it wasn't my work? No invoice or check showing I did a panel change out. A sticker in not laiability.
All of the inspectors here know me & the work I do, so there is no way they could ever suspect that as my work
 
77401 said:
Really?
Why not?
This was or could be just a small sign of the crap in his house. Something has to fail & hopefully he'll call me. If he calls another EC & they see my sticker on there, oh well, like I care about any other EC's opinions of me? When it wasn't my work? No invoice or check showing I did a panel change out. A sticker in not liability.
All of the inspectors here know me & the work I do, so there is no way they could ever suspect that as my work
Click to expand...

The courts do not know your work, and by putting your sticker on it, you may be inadvertently accepting liability, or some degree of it. You looked at it, your licensed (I assume) and therefore you say it's OK. When the house burns down, believe me, the HO will be looking to sue anybody he can, and you will get dragged into court. I would like to see the look on the judge's face when you tell them, "but the inspectors know I do good work". If need be they will bury you to save themselves.

The fact is, you didn't tell the HO anything was wrong even though you looked and you saw "crap". Therefore your as negligent as the guy that did the work, and guess what, I got your number because you left it!

It's called professional responsibility, and everybody with a license is obligated to report misconduct, and violations.

BTW: If another EC sees it, how does he know it's not your work, and maybe he cares, and does report it, or spreads the word you do crap work. So, you might want to start caring!
 
kingpb said:
It's called professional responsibility, and everybody with a license is obligated to report misconduct, and violations.
Click to expand...

Says WHO?
Its a good thought BUT, Get real! The HO never asked me for a professional opinion of the work someone else did. I was not there doing an inspection, nor am I a licensed inspector.
Is this implied, or written, or just the way you feel?
I never took a hipocratic(no spell check) oath.
Where does it say, anywhere, that I have to Police the industryand every persone before me?
Misconduct or Violations? You can't be serious.
I don't think you have a clue as to how courts work. They would have to prove I did the work beyond a reasonable doubt. No receipt or check written to me and only a sticker on the panel?
I have my proof of why my sticker was there & what I was there for.
I could represent my self on this with out a lawyer & have it thrown out in pre trial motions.
 
I think it falls under ethical integrity. No one is asking you to "police the industry", let's not get melodramatic.

You sir, are the one that seems to have no clue as to how courts work, believe me it's not like TV. Beyond a reasonable doubt is limited to criminal cases, not civil law suits. You can ask old OJ about that. If you remember he was acquitted in criminal court, but found guilty in civil court. The rules are completely different. I am not a lawyer, so I cannot debate actual law with you. I would suggest you speak to legal council, if you need assistance in this area. As far as my knowledge, I have been an expert witness before, and am quite comfortable with how the system works. We'll just say, the award doesn't always seem fair. But then again, you could always close up shop, and open up again under another name. But then you'd have to go change all those panel stickers again.

I don't think we're talking about personal opinions. I thought we were talking about specific code violations.

I'll pose a hypothetical question:

I'm a HO with little electrical knowledge, you come out and do some non-maintenance/non-repair work. While you are doing the work, you see two NEC code violations in the panel, performed by someone else. Since no one asked for your "opinion", you say nothing to me, and slap your highly decorated and artistically eye catching sticker on my panel.

A couple weeks later, there's a problem that occurs. So I call the number on your highly decorated and artistically eye catching sticker that's on my panel. You come by again, this time you tell me that there are two code violations in my panel that caused the problem. So I ask, why didn't you tell me when you were here before. Your answer, because you didn't ask. My response, a lot of four letter words, followed by get off my property. And forevermore, I tell anyway that needs an electrician NOT to call you.

Now, which would have served your interests better? Being ethical or not?

I get the impression that most do not agree with you on this, and for that I am satisfied. You run your business the way you like! I am comfortable with knowing whom not to call.

BTW: Did you pull a permit on the non-maintenance/non-repair work you did?
 
It is unbelievable how little you have to do to become involved in a lawsuit. I once installed a new GFCI protected receptacle in a bathroom for a customer. Some weeks later he received a shock while in his shower. We found that (years before) someone had installed a single pole switch on his 120-volt water heater, on the grounded (neutral) conductor. Someone else had changed his service, and connected the bond for his metal drain pipes but not the bond for the copper water line. A short developed in the water heater, no bond to water line, so no ground return path. The switch was turned off to water heater placing 120-volts on all copper pipes in house. We had a very hard time proving that his shock was not related to the receptacle that we installed and that it was not reasonable that we would have discovered the missing bond wire while doing this installation. As an electrician, you are guilty until proven innocent. If you fail to report an obvious safety problem, and someone gets hurt, you WILL be held accountable. In all cases, you need to CYA, by at least reporting obvious dangers to the homeowner, in writing. If you do not want to report it to the inspector, that is up to you. You can bet that, if someone gets hurt, the homeowner will sue you in a heartbeat. You will need proof that you notified the homeowner of the problem and that they opted not to have it repaired.
As a professional you are held to a higher standard. It may not be fair, but it is a fact.
 
77401,

If I were the homeowner, with little or no electrical knowledge, I would hope that an electrician would tell me about a potential problem with my wiring.

For example: You take your car to your mechanic for a new water pump. During the course of his work he finds that your brake lines are very suspect to failure. How would you react if he didn't take the initiative to at least inform you of his findings? Would you say to yourself; "Well, I only hired him to put on a water pump it wasn't his responsibility to tell me about the imminent failure of my brakes." as your trying to rationalize the relationship your vehicle just had with a large oak tree?

How about going to see your Doctor for a sinus infection and during his examination he determines (somehow) that you have advanced cancer..... wouldn't you want to know? Do you think he has a responsibility to tell you?

Maybe ignorance is bliss....

Pete
 
Oakey said:
I have a customer who had asked me to wire the central A/C... but as it turns out that the A/C company wired it. No biggie I have enough work but I question how they did it.

1)A correct 10/2 to the O/S disconnect with a whip. So far all is good.
2) They didnt use a conn in the ko thru the back
3) A 14/2 uf was run thru the same ko (back) and mashed against the house to the A/C leader to the attic.
4) The same 14/2 was installed on the line terminals of the disconnect which is breaker proteced at 30 amps.
I dont know much on tap rules but is this legal?
Click to expand...

What is the MCA value on the air conditioner's nameplate? Number 14 wire may be large enough and it is permitted to put larger than normal breakers on air conditioner wiring. Now the lack of cable fittings is a violation.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top