A closet? Not a closet? I'm a hypocrite

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electricmanscott

electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
Occupation
Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
For many threads on this board I have argued that an outlet in a closet in a bedroom need not be AFCI protected because it is a closet not a bedroom. When it came time to apply my own logic I did the opposite. In a 1/2 bath with a washer and dryer behind bifold doors (a closet just like a bedroom closet) I installed a gfci receptacle for the washing machine. All bathroom receptacles must be gfci protected. But this receptacle is not in a bathroom it is in a closet. Right? :confused:

For the record the inspector pointed out that a gfci is not required because the receptacle is for a washing machine. I don't see that exception applying to this situation but I kept my mouth shut.
 
Re: A closet? Not a closet? I'm a hypocrite

Originally posted by electricmanscott:
[ In a 1/2 bath with a washer and dryer behind bifold doors (a closet just like a bedroom closet)
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If the doors weren't there it would be part of the bathroom. But I agree, this is a closet because of the doors. GFCI not required.
 
Re: A closet? Not a closet? I'm a hypocrite

Who are you, and what did you do with the real Scott!?! :eek: :eek:

[ October 12, 2005, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: peter d ]
 
Re: A closet? Not a closet? I'm a hypocrite

Originally posted by peter d:
Who are you, and what did you do with the real Scott!?! :eek: :eek:
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laughabove.gif


Roger

[ October 12, 2005, 08:18 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
 
Re: A closet? Not a closet? I'm a hypocrite

It's easy to say that common sense should prevail, that this washing machine could be on a single receptacle or a duplex and be legal.

I've heard concerns from inspectors about washing machine dupelx receptacles potentially being used for other things, and those things being dropped into the washing machine when the tub is full of water.

IMO, this is nonsense. GFCI isn't required, or even beneficial.
 
Re: A closet? Not a closet? I'm a hypocrite

The idea behind a single circuit dedicated to the washer was to supply the iron also - at least that is how it was explained to me. SO if that is the thinking then you would need a duplex.

Using a 15 or 20 amp circuit to supply JUST the washer with JUST a 1/3 HP motor seems kind of silly to me
- BUT that is what code says
- don't have to reason why just verbatim comply.
-- there is starting current to be considered I know.

I like to use GFCI on washers - who cares what code says? There is water there, lots of wires inside the machine (have you ever looked at their connections and methods?)

Hmmm in the scenario set forth with the doors closed the washer is in a closet. With the doors open or removed it is part of the bathroom.
Aren't we getting awful picky here? What is the purpose - give people a good, reliable and safe wiring system or merely comply with code?
 
Re: A closet? Not a closet? I'm a hypocrite

Originally posted by Leitmotif:
Using a 15 or 20 amp circuit to supply JUST the washer with JUST a 1/3 HP motor seems kind of silly to me
Click to expand...
You can't use a 15 amp circuit.
 
Re: A closet? Not a closet? I'm a hypocrite

IMO, if we are discussing 125-volt laundry outlets in a bathroom, the GFCI protection is required. Exceptions listed under 210.8(A)(2) do not apply to 210.8(A)(1).

I see your dilemma electricmanscott.
Did you install the GFCI protection to CYA or do you really think that the laundry equipment, practically speaking, is in the bathroom? Sometimes we think technically and consider only the letter of the code, and sometimes we consider the practical intent of it and see things differently. Fortunately, usually they are one and the same. Anyway, to interpret to similar situations differently, does not make one a hypocrite.
I understand this is not in agreement with current code requirements, and I am probably missing something here, but IMO, the requirement does not seem necessary for 1/2 baths. For 3/4 & full baths, I agree with the requirement.

So how about this? If it's a half bath and the laundry equipment is behind bifolds we'll consider it not in the bathroom area and skip the GFCI protection. If its a 3/4 or full bath and the equipment is behind bifolds we opine that the laundry is in the bathroom (area) and install the GFCI. :)

OR MAYBE we follow the code requirement regardless of whether it is 1/2, 3/4, or full bath and regardless of the bifold doors and provide the GFCI protection.

Hows that for a bunch of junk?

IMO, it comes down to whether your inspector considers the laundry to be in the bathroom, and more importantly, even if he doesn't do you?

[ October 13, 2005, 02:00 AM: Message edited by: geezer ]
 
Re: A closet? Not a closet? I'm a hypocrite

Originally posted by Leitmotif:
Using a 15 or 20 amp circuit to supply JUST the washer with JUST a 1/3 HP motor seems kind of silly to me
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You can't use a 15 amp circuit.

Looked it up - you are correct.
Thank you
 
Re: A closet? Not a closet? I'm a hypocrite

I think scott's question came from another site where it was argued about closets being "in"the room. Is a closet in the bathroom, "in" the bathroom for code purposes, and is a closet in the bedroom, "in" the bedroom for code purposes(with or withiout doors)? My point of view is that either yes or no, the answer should be the same for both.

Making it complicated with alternate scenarios does not negate the basic question, however it might make any answer seem illogical.

paul
 
Re: A closet? Not a closet? I'm a hypocrite

This is a shot in the dark, but, just to cover the base, . . .

E Scott,

I assume that there is no laundry tub behind the bifold doors with the laundry machine(s). Am I correct in my assumption? I'm thinking of 2005 NEC 210.8(A)(7). And, further, is the edge of the bath sink more than six feet from the laundry outlet?
 
Re: A closet? Not a closet? I'm a hypocrite

Originally posted by al hildenbrand: And, further, is the edge of the bath sink more than six feet from the laundry outlet?
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Just to stir the pot a bit, :D
 
Re: A closet? Not a closet? I'm a hypocrite

Scott,

My first thought was that GFCI protection is not required, that the closet separates laundry area from bathroom area.

But, since you reminded me of the bedroom/ closet analogy, I am more inclined to say that yes, it would need GFCI proptection. This would be my literal interpretation.

Was this a real situation, or is this a sly attempt to rehash the bedroom situation? :)

John
 
Re: A closet? Not a closet? I'm a hypocrite

John are you suggesting a closet needs AFCI protection?

If it does why are we not told so by the NEC? :confused:
 
Re: A closet? Not a closet? I'm a hypocrite

Originally posted by j_erickson:
Was this a real situation, or is this a sly attempt to rehash the bedroom situation? :)
John
Click to expand...
As much as I like to stir the pot when the opportunity arises :D this is an actual situation.
My thinking was this is in the bathroom and all bathroom receptacles must be gfci protected. So that is what I did. It was not till later that I started to think about the closet doors and how that separates the "Laundry closet" from the "Bathroom". It is similar to the bedroom closet issue that we have seen in the past. I now say no GFCI.
 
Re: A closet? Not a closet? I'm a hypocrite

Originally posted by iwire:
John are you suggesting a closet needs AFCI protection?

If it does why are we not told so by the NEC? :confused:
Click to expand...
Now this might be a sly attempt to get this one going again.
 
Re: A closet? Not a closet? I'm a hypocrite

Originally posted by electricmanscott:
Originally posted by iwire:
John are you suggesting a closet needs AFCI protection?

If it does why are we not told so by the NEC? :confused:
Click to expand...
Now this might be a sly attempt to get this one going again.
Click to expand...
No way....not me
angel.gif
 
Re: A closet? Not a closet? I'm a hypocrite

Most of those responding seem to consider the laundry compartment/closet/alcove to be a separate room from the bathroom because of the folding door. If the toilet compartment is separated from the rest of the bathroom by a door (not uncommon), is this also a separate room? If not, why not?
 
Re: A closet? Not a closet? I'm a hypocrite

A closet is a closet. If it doesn't have doors, it's an alcove. In this case, no GFCI required.
 
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