A couple of old Square D breaker panels

[hurk27]

I went on a service call for a pharmacy a few cities over, because of a tripping lighting breaker and found these old panels still in use.

Lighting panel #1

The top left breaker was bad so there was two unused breakers one on each side of the panel, the one a few spaces below the bad one would not work but the one on the other side was ok? so I moved the circuit over to it, wasn't about to try to move the breakers around, I have never even worked on a panel like this, seen one a long time ago but I have no clue on how these breakers are attached?

Owner agreed with an upgrade, this panel will become a junction box, and a new 30 space QO panel will be located just below it, because there is no other room, it is fed from a 100 amp fused disconnect from a basement service 800 amp 4-wire delta service, this panel is fed from "A" and "C" phases.

 

[hurk27]

Panel two which has problems also as you can see the 30 amp fuses, but the owner doesn't want anything done with it just yet, it feeds all the receptacle loads, and many circuits look like they have been not used for a long time.

This is the first time I have ever seen both what looks like a breaker in line with a Edison fuse? it appears that the handle is just a switch to turn off the circuit with no OCPD it is also a Square D panel.

I did not remove any covers as I wasn't there to work on this one, but it is about 3' over from the #1 lighting panel, and there is a new 3/phase panel for HVAC also located here.

Enjoy:grin:

maybe our Square D guru will chime in on these old panels.

P.S. sorry for the large images, I don't have an imaging editor on this computer right now, and I cant find my photo shop DVD to install it.

 

[jim dungar]

The circuit breaker looks like an old ML-1 style, the part number is actually on the side of the breaker, and it may look like 997xxx. Vintage is about 1940-50's

These are not plug-on devices. They bolt to the panel bussing similar to the way most non-Square D I-Line panels do. The bussing is flat against the back between the breakers (behind the numbers 1-2, 3-4 etc). There is a set of bus extensions from the rear bussing to one of the breakers and then a set of connector bars between them.

The fusible panel is the same vintage. This is the type of panel that is addressed by NEC 408.6(A).

 

[K8MHZ]

Yep, sure looks like N.W. Indiana to me with the green wire on the breaker and all.

:grin:

(I spent some time at Mittal Plant 2 and and was amazed at how much the color codes were disregarded)

I think those panels are older than you think. Square D has been making circuit breakers under their own name since the thirty's.

 

[K8MHZ]

Here is a 997217

http://www.relectric.com/Store/Circuit-Breakers/997217

Sorry, no pics, but there should be enough info to figure out if that is what you need or not.

 

[jim dungar]

I think those panels are older than you think. Square D has been making circuit breakers under their own name since the thirty's.

I will have to get back to my office to be sure, but I am pretty confident it is an NYB panel built from 1941 to about 1964. I am not sure of the ML-1 breaker prefix number, I guessed at the 997 part.

 

[hurk27]

The circuit breaker looks like an old ML-1 style, the part number is actually on the side of the breaker, and it may look like 997xxx. Vintage is about 1940-50's


These are not plug-on devices. They bolt to the panel bussing similar to the way most non-Square D I-Line panels do. The bussing is flat against the back between the breakers (behind the numbers 1-2, 3-4 etc). There is a set of bus extensions from the rear bussing to one of the breakers and then a set of connector bars between them.

The fusible panel is the same vintage. This is the type of panel that is addressed by NEC 408.6(A).

I figured around that time period although the wiring looks more 50ish+
and not about to take these apart except when we go to replace the lighting panel in the first post.

I can not find anything in my NEC's back to 2002, 408.6 does exist in the 2002 but there is no (A) it seems 408.3(A) might be what you were referring to for the other panel?

Yep, sure looks like N.W. Indiana to me with the green wire on the breaker and all.

:grin:

(I spent some time at Mittal Plant 2 and and was amazed at how much the color codes were disregarded)

I think those panels are older than you think. Square D has been making circuit breakers under their own name since the thirty's.

that plant is right next to this pharmacy, which is in Whiting, In.

and I live about 3 miles from the Burns harbor Mittal plant 1.

very common to find green used as a circuit conductor in older wiring, one reason to "never assume what a conductor is by it's color" now that sounds like a very famous saying:roll:

there are a few doubled up conductors on breakers which is why were installing a 30 space in place of this 20 space panel.

finding green on breakers has been discussed many times here on MH's site.

I'm not looking for any parts as this panel will be changed out.
I was just seeing if anyone was familiar with them?

 

[jim dungar]

I can not find anything in my NEC's back to 2002, 408.6 does exist in the 2002 but there is no (A) it seems 408.3(A) might be what you were referring to for the other panel?

Sometimes it amazes me that I make my living using correct numbers.:roll:

 

[hurk27]

Sometimes it amazes me that I make my living using correct numbers.:roll:

LOL
If I had to depend upon my remembering of numbers to make a living I would have been in the poor farm along time ago, took me two weeks just to remember what my cell phone number was.

 

[readydave8]

I worked in a panel like the 1st one 2 or 3 years ago, I think the center screw holds a cover that when removed gives acess to screw that connects breaker to bus?

My local square D supplier was able to get me sp's but not 20 amp dp breaker.

 

[GUNNING]

Salute!

Salute!

Ive seen this setup in an old sears store in Gainesville FL. It worked fine except for the overload on the remodel for the new office supply store. That wasn't the equipments fault (nor mine). Had a floor of lights with ballasts with pcb'S. Now that was scary. Told the manager to give me a call when they wanted the old equipment changed out. He said it wasn't going to happen. Maybe someone in the next 100 years will get to it.
I love seeing old equipment made in the USA. In another magic time. Its really fascinating. The materials are not that fancy and still holding up. Mica natural rubber leather washers steel slot screws ceramic Bakelite... its great, something to be proud of.

 

[hurk27]

Ive seen this setup in an old sears store in Gainesville FL. It worked fine except for the overload on the remodel for the new office supply store. That wasn't the equipments fault (nor mine). Had a floor of lights with ballasts with pcb'S. Now that was scary. Told the manager to give me a call when they wanted the old equipment changed out. He said it wasn't going to happen. Maybe someone in the next 100 years will get to it.
I love seeing old equipment made in the USA. In another magic time. Its really fascinating. The materials are not that fancy and still holding up. Mica natural rubber leather washers steel slot screws ceramic Bakelite... its great, something to be proud of.

Like an old cermic box I found and posted photo's in this POST

 

[hardworkingstiff]

... took me two weeks just to remember what my cell phone number was.

Don't be so hard on yourself, you don't call yourself do you?

 

[tesi1]

old stuff

old stuff

this panel would be from the 1950's if it was installed at the same time
as the conductors, all the conductors looks like t or tw, if it was type r, rw i
would say it was from the 1940's or earlyer

 

[Thedroid]

Wow, those are some neat panels!! I really like vintage gear, and sure does stand the test of time. Too bad they're destined for the dump, but if they don't work, and you cant get parts, thats they way it goes. Upgrades pay a lot more also.

 

[jim dungar]

Based on the catalog log number CB7103-2 (in the third picture), my references show this as a type NQB panel built in the period 1947-1950.

The box size was 20"w x 5-3/4"d (just like today's MH boxes)
The breaker type was an ML, and it accepted 1,2, and 3 pole breakers from 15-50A. Replacement breakers were available until 1979. (Note: do not confuse these with the NQB panels built from 1950-1958 which used QB breakers). The ML, 1 pole, breakers began with 992xxx.

The 997xxx number I previously quoted from memory was for the 2 and 3 pole 600V ML-3 version.