A Darwin Experiment

[tonype]

Photo says it all. Note the electrically powered candle thingy in the corner.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a352/TonyPE/IMGP5626_edited-1.jpg

 

[480sparky]

Photo says it all. Note the electrically powered candle thingy in the corner.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a352/TonyPE/IMGP5626_edited-1.jpg

It's called potpourri. Basically a little heating element that that heats a scented liquid to make the room stink nice.

 

[iaov]

Will that cover up the smell of electricaly fried/boiled flesh??

 

[480sparky]

Will that cover up the smell of electricaly fried/boiled flesh??

I wonder if you could hear someone screaming for help over the radio after it falls in the water.

 

[iaov]

You're a very sick little boy 480. I respect that!!

 

[al hildenbrand]

Photo says it all.

Yup. A definite "right at the thin line of NEC minimum" as spelled out in 2008 NEC 406.8(C).

One can argue whether the cover plate or the box constitute a "receptacle" as used in 406.8(C).

From the photo, it looks like the device misses being directly over the lip of the tub by ~?".

 

[480sparky]

Yup. A definite "right at the thin line of NEC minimum" as spelled out in 2008 NEC 406.8(C).

One can argue whether the cover plate or the box constitute a "receptacle" as used in 406.8(C).

From the photo, it looks like the device misses being directly over the lip of the tub by ~?".

I wonder if the tub was installed as an afterthought. It looks to me that it's possible the recep was originally placed outside the mirror intentionally so as not to have to cut the vanity mirror.

Years later, the tub was added, and the glass company cut around the recep.

 

[tonype]

Yup. A definite "right at the thin line of [I]NEC minimum[/I]" as spelled out in 2008 NEC 406.8(C).

One can argue whether the cover plate or the box constitute a "receptacle" as used in 406.8(C).

From the photo, it looks like the device misses being directly over the lip of the tub by ~?".[/QUOTE]

406.8(C) says "bathtub or shower space" - how is that interpreted? I would include the tile edge of the tub assembly as being part of the tub space. Or is the space defined as the tub lip proper? What if the receptacle was on the right wall in the photo, outside of the tub "lip" - would that be considered in the bathtub "space"?

 

[al hildenbrand]

406.8(C) says "bathtub or shower space" - how is that interpreted?

Looking at the exact Code citation (with my red highlite):

2008 NEC
406.8 Receptacles in Damp or Wet Locations.

(C) Bathtub and Shower Space. Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bathtub or shower stall.

The only word used is "bathtub", nothing like "bathtub assembly".

Given the apron at the foot of the tub, some might even argue that the whole wall that the receptacle is currently on is not directly over the tub. The wall to the right in the photo appears to be "directly over a bathtub".

 

[al hildenbrand]

Heh!

I'm personally not interested in that kind of argument, so, if a tight install in a small bath is presented to me, I'll make sure that the right edge of the cover plate is to the left of the vertical off the left edge of the tub. . .

:roll:

The "reality" is, the GFCI is supposed to be checked monthly by the occupant. . . .

I agree with your opening premise concerning Darwin Awards for voluntary removal from the gene pool. People will queue up for the Award.

The appliances installed in this photo are evidence of another volunteer. The NEC doesn't stop the volunteer, just makes it a little harder for successful application for the award.

 

[roger3829]

Yup. A definite "right at the thin line of NEC minimum" as spelled out in 2008 NEC 406.8(C).

One can argue whether the cover plate or the box constitute a "receptacle" as used in 406.8(C).

From the photo, it looks like the device misses being directly over the lip of the tub by ~?".

1/4" or 1/4 mile doesn't really make a difference as long as it is outside of tub area......

 

[tonype]

Given the apron at the foot of the tub, some might even argue that the whole wall that the receptacle is currently on is not directly over the tub. The wall to the right in the photo appears to be "directly over a bathtub".

I should have elaborated - I was using the 2002 NEC - was inforce when the home was built about 5 years ago. That edition lists "bathtub or shower space". Maybe the confusion here resulted in the change in subsequent editions.

BTW - this bathroom is very large - curious why the recept. was installed where it was, given all of the other room available.

 

[al hildenbrand]

I should have elaborated - I was using the 2002 NEC - was inforce when the home was built about 5 years ago. That edition lists "bathtub or shower space".

The 2002 NEC is worse, that is, more easily argued about the meaning.

2002 NEC
406.8 Receptacles in Damp or Wet Locations.

(C) Bathtub and Shower Space. A receptacle shall not be installed within a bathtub or shower space.

As written, there is no definition of "bathtub space". One can look to the use of "bathtub area" as used in 410.4(D), which talks about luminaires in specific locations, and has a diagram in the NEC Handbook. In 410.4(D) one is told about " a zone measured . . .vertically from the top of the bathtub rim. . ."

But, that said, "within a bathtub space" strictly means the tub itself.

this bathroom is very large - curious why the recept. was installed where it was, given all of the other room available.

In my experience, there is no accounting for it without actually knowing the chain of decision making on the project. It can run from rigorous to extremely loose.

 

[K8MHZ]

How about common sense?

Legal or not, that is an accident waiting to happen.

 

[480sparky]

How about common sense?

Legal or not, that is an accident waiting to happen.

Even moving the recep to the left 6" will not increase the safety any. It't not the recep location that's the problem, it's the person plugging that stuff in.

 

[kornbln]

The only thing I see wrong with this is that the receptacle doesn't have a mirror finish to match the cover plate.

 

[pfalcon]

Looking at the exact Code citation (with my red highlite): The only word used is "bathtub", nothing like "bathtub assembly"...

2008 NEC
406.8 Receptacles in Damp or Wet Locations.

(C) Bathtub and Shower Space. Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bathtub or shower stall.

Since ordering red or white wine with dinner does not allow me to order red wine; You don't have to worry that the word bathtub is being used as an adjective for the word stall. After all; the language is COMPLETELY different than referring to say, alfredo or marinara sauce. The word OR cannot possibly be used to conjoin two adjectives. I mean, that would make OR a conjunction for goodness sake. Speaking of which, all this talk of food has me hungry so I'm going to heat up a macaroni and cheese dinner even though I know there is no macaroni in it.

 

[al hildenbrand]

You do have to worry that the word bathtub is being used as an adjective for the word stall?

Is that what your quote is? You seem to have taken liberty with my "quotes".

I humbly submit to you that "bathtub" might well be a one-word term meaning bathtub, and that "shower stall" might be a two-word term meaning shower stall.

I do know that when I use my bathroom, which has a tub, but no shower or wand, that I get into the bathtub. . . I do not get into the bathtub stall.

 

[K8MHZ]

I humbly submit to you that "bathtub" might well be a one-word term meaning bathtub, and that "shower stall" might be a two-word term meaning shower stall.

That's what I'm talking about.

Nonetheless, looking at the picture gives me the creeps. It has 'there's got to be a better way' written all over it.

 

[al hildenbrand]

looking at the picture gives me the creeps. It has 'there's got to be a better way' written all over it.

And as Tonype tells us, the bath is a big room. . . sigh.

Given that this receptacle is not a GFCI, I suspect there is, at least, another receptacle in the room that is a GFCI.

A more risk averse occupant might use the mirror receptacle only for the cord connected "whatever" while standing at the mirror, and then unplugging it and putting it beyond reach of the tub.