I recently roughed in a bath,as a remodel, and only the bath area was effected by this remodel, I did nothing and I mean nothing in the bedroom, which is attached via a door to the bathroom.The A.H.J. wants me to Put all the circuits feeding the bath on A.F.C.I. I said, are we standing in a bedroom or are we standing in a bathroom? He said because it is attached to the bedroom it needs the AFCI,so I said the hall is attached to the bedroom does that need to be protected as well?You see where I'm going with this. In my house a bathroom is "attached" to my Kitchen would this A.H.J. want me to put the required bathroom receptacle on the small appliance branch cirt? Is anyone running in to this? I have no intention, unless someone can show me something I just can't see, of putting the four circuits feeding this bathroom on A.F.C.I. protection.I looked and bedrooms are not defined in the N.E.C. but bathrooms are and they are defined as an "area" no walls are required for it to be a different space. I find it to be ironic that if I follow his interpitatin the only A.F.C.I. protection will be in the bathroom,he made no request for me to change the existing branch citr(s) feeding the bedroom. Am I nuts or do some inspectors try to read too much into the code?
A.F.C. I. protection in bath area????
- Thread starter cram
- Start date
- Status
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: A.F.C. I. protection in bath area????
I agree with you that 210.12(B) is really clear that it covers beds. I also agree that, while I may drowse in my bath, it is not a bed.
Not knowing where you are, I ask: Is this one inspector the final and only AHJ for your bath job? If he has a boss, talk with the boss.
I agree with you that 210.12(B) is really clear that it covers beds. I also agree that, while I may drowse in my bath, it is not a bed.
Not knowing where you are, I ask: Is this one inspector the final and only AHJ for your bath job? If he has a boss, talk with the boss.
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: A.F.C. I. protection in bath area????
With this inspectors reasoning, I wonder if he requires this bedroom to have GFCI protection since it is connected to the bath? :roll:
With this inspectors reasoning, I wonder if he requires this bedroom to have GFCI protection since it is connected to the bath? :roll:
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: A.F.C. I. protection in bath area????
I should just keep reading but ???
I am all for a uniform inspection of all jurisdictions through out this great country of ours. I am also proactive toward having all code enforcement officials get continuing education on a yearly basis. I think that all electrical enforcement officials should be required to attend meetings of the International Association of Electrical Inspectors in their area. And I am behind the partnership of the IAEI and NFPA for the training of code enforcement officials. My parting though is that we should stop referring to them as the Authority Having Jurisdiction just for reasons mentioned above.
I should just keep reading but ???
I am all for a uniform inspection of all jurisdictions through out this great country of ours. I am also proactive toward having all code enforcement officials get continuing education on a yearly basis. I think that all electrical enforcement officials should be required to attend meetings of the International Association of Electrical Inspectors in their area. And I am behind the partnership of the IAEI and NFPA for the training of code enforcement officials. My parting though is that we should stop referring to them as the Authority Having Jurisdiction just for reasons mentioned above.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: A.F.C. I. protection in bath area????
Cram - Marc backwards or is it, Marc Cram backwards?
I hope you do not work in houses where the kitchen, bathroom, bedroom and laundry are next to each other
, I would love to know how to wire one of those .
Unless your jurisdiction has some wild ordinances, he is way off the mark (or is that marc). For the sake of others, go over his head.
Pierre
Cram - Marc backwards or is it, Marc Cram backwards?
I hope you do not work in houses where the kitchen, bathroom, bedroom and laundry are next to each other
, I would love to know how to wire one of those .Unless your jurisdiction has some wild ordinances, he is way off the mark (or is that marc). For the sake of others, go over his head.
Pierre
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: A.F.C. I. protection in bath area????
We had a tread not long ago about this.Even the closet off a bed room is not required afci.Ask the inspector to please read the nec and point out where he thinks a bathroom is part of bedroom.You will win but might be a battle.Yes go over his head as far as needed.
We had a tread not long ago about this.Even the closet off a bed room is not required afci.Ask the inspector to please read the nec and point out where he thinks a bathroom is part of bedroom.You will win but might be a battle.Yes go over his head as far as needed.
stud696981
Senior Member
Re: A.F.C. I. protection in bath area????
It's a shame that we have to deal with inspectors like this.
I have had a few incidents over the years with the inspectors at various locations for NONSENSE like this. When the inspector calls me out on something and I don't agree, I politely ask them what NEC section and or local law they are quoting. If I'm wrong, I fix it and learn from my mistake. If they are definitely wrong I politely point out the facts and leave it at that. If they persist, I don't waste my time calling or tracking down their boss..........usually their boss is just as ignorant as them. I simply state, I'm not fixing this because you are mistaken, do what you have to do, if you like we can let a judge settle this." It works every time for this when they are in the wrong. I have found that sometimes inspectors think that even if they are wrong they can persuade people to fix stuff because they are the AHJ and everything in the code books can be interpreted in their favor.
Bottom line, if this inspector cannot site a specific code or law...........tell him where to go!!!
It's a shame that we have to deal with inspectors like this.
I have had a few incidents over the years with the inspectors at various locations for NONSENSE like this. When the inspector calls me out on something and I don't agree, I politely ask them what NEC section and or local law they are quoting. If I'm wrong, I fix it and learn from my mistake. If they are definitely wrong I politely point out the facts and leave it at that. If they persist, I don't waste my time calling or tracking down their boss..........usually their boss is just as ignorant as them. I simply state, I'm not fixing this because you are mistaken, do what you have to do, if you like we can let a judge settle this." It works every time for this when they are in the wrong. I have found that sometimes inspectors think that even if they are wrong they can persuade people to fix stuff because they are the AHJ and everything in the code books can be interpreted in their favor.
Bottom line, if this inspector cannot site a specific code or law...........tell him where to go!!!
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: A.F.C. I. protection in bath area????
Studs,
I like your approach. It is something that, if the inspector is motivated to make his/er statement stick, will widen the conversation to involve others.
I work in an area that is governed by a single state-wide AHJ, the Minnesota State Board of Electricity. Counties, municipalities, towns and local inspectors have their say, but the final AHJ is the Board. There are a lot of "bosses", as a rule for many of the inspectors I work with. It is worth it, for me, to have the conversation first, like you said, but, I have found also that having a conversation with the boss to be worthwhile in my case.
Studs,
I like your approach. It is something that, if the inspector is motivated to make his/er statement stick, will widen the conversation to involve others.
I work in an area that is governed by a single state-wide AHJ, the Minnesota State Board of Electricity. Counties, municipalities, towns and local inspectors have their say, but the final AHJ is the Board. There are a lot of "bosses", as a rule for many of the inspectors I work with. It is worth it, for me, to have the conversation first, like you said, but, I have found also that having a conversation with the boss to be worthwhile in my case.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: A.F.C. I. protection in bath area????
Not sure how you can just say im not fixing it.Here that means my rough or final is not signed off.If its a rough untill i am signed off they cant even get framing inspection so the game is over.On final if im not signed they simply cant get a CO so no electric will get turned on.
Not sure how you can just say im not fixing it.Here that means my rough or final is not signed off.If its a rough untill i am signed off they cant even get framing inspection so the game is over.On final if im not signed they simply cant get a CO so no electric will get turned on.
Re: A.F.C. I. protection in bath area????
Hi Jim, thanks to you and to all for responding. They are living there already so occupancy is not a problem.I guess what I'm saying is, I'm moving forward, whatever steps he takes will involve finding an article to back up his claim, and then he will have to convince someone that he is right and there is his problem. I think he knows his limitations and will drop it.
Hi Jim, thanks to you and to all for responding. They are living there already so occupancy is not a problem.I guess what I'm saying is, I'm moving forward, whatever steps he takes will involve finding an article to back up his claim, and then he will have to convince someone that he is right and there is his problem. I think he knows his limitations and will drop it.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: A.F.C. I. protection in bath area????
Not sure i would let this just pass.While you have not violated any nec codes there is the matter of insurance coverage on a bathroom you wired that has been rejected.
Why not try this,invite him to join this forum so that maybe we can get him on the right track.He most likely believes he is correct.
Not sure i would let this just pass.While you have not violated any nec codes there is the matter of insurance coverage on a bathroom you wired that has been rejected.
Why not try this,invite him to join this forum so that maybe we can get him on the right track.He most likely believes he is correct.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: A.F.C. I. protection in bath area????
Marc
We all get a little mixed up once in a while and make a few mistakes. Have you tried to talk to him yet? I would be curious how he responds. Sometimes it doesn't hurt for you to point out the code citation.
I am not sure where you are from, but come to think of it, there are a few jurisdictions that I have heard that have expanded the requirements for AFCI protection - I think Vermont is one of the places.
Pierre
[ January 18, 2005, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: pierre ]
Marc
We all get a little mixed up once in a while
and make a few mistakes. Have you tried to talk to him yet? I would be curious how he responds. Sometimes it doesn't hurt for you to point out the code citation.I am not sure where you are from, but come to think of it, there are a few jurisdictions that I have heard that have expanded the requirements for AFCI protection - I think Vermont is one of the places.
Pierre
[ January 18, 2005, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: pierre ]
Re: A.F.C. I. protection in bath area????
If he does not sign the final inspection it is his responsibility to give the infraction a BEDROOM ATTACHED TO A BATHROOM? are you kidding me. the hallway is attached to the bedroom the stairs are attached to the hallway the whole darn house is attached to the bedroom, if it got that far he would be laughed at.perhaps I would ask for and pay for, a formal interpretation from the state electrical board.Like I said my, bathroom is attached to my kitchen so does the inspector choose the requirements for baths or for kitchens I think he knows his limitations and will drop it.
If he does not sign the final inspection it is his responsibility to give the infraction a BEDROOM ATTACHED TO A BATHROOM? are you kidding me. the hallway is attached to the bedroom the stairs are attached to the hallway the whole darn house is attached to the bedroom, if it got that far he would be laughed at.perhaps I would ask for and pay for, a formal interpretation from the state electrical board.Like I said my, bathroom is attached to my kitchen so does the inspector choose the requirements for baths or for kitchens I think he knows his limitations and will drop it.
stud696981
Senior Member
Re: A.F.C. I. protection in bath area????
Jim,
I took the above stance based on the job being a "Remodel." If this was new construction, I would add one more line to my statement to the inspector. "If you hold up this inspection and cause any type of loss I will bring a lawsuit against you and your city." I take a tough stance on this kind of stuff because I have run into too many KNOW IT ALL inspectors. As I said before, if I make a mistake, I quickly fix it and learn from it. But if an inspector calls me out on something that he can not back up, only states his off the wall opinion, then I take a totally different stance. Especially when it's some off the wall stuff like the original post here.
Now when it comes to holding up inspections, I had this happen to a friend of mine over something that was off the wall and not on the books. This caused some grief at first, but when his attorney got done, the city settled out of court for some big bucks. By the way, that inspector was never seen working for the city after that.
Bottom line, if you are right, DON'T BACK DOWN!
Jim,
I took the above stance based on the job being a "Remodel." If this was new construction, I would add one more line to my statement to the inspector. "If you hold up this inspection and cause any type of loss I will bring a lawsuit against you and your city." I take a tough stance on this kind of stuff because I have run into too many KNOW IT ALL inspectors. As I said before, if I make a mistake, I quickly fix it and learn from it. But if an inspector calls me out on something that he can not back up, only states his off the wall opinion, then I take a totally different stance. Especially when it's some off the wall stuff like the original post here.
Now when it comes to holding up inspections, I had this happen to a friend of mine over something that was off the wall and not on the books. This caused some grief at first, but when his attorney got done, the city settled out of court for some big bucks. By the way, that inspector was never seen working for the city after that.
Bottom line, if you are right, DON'T BACK DOWN!
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: A.F.C. I. protection in bath area????
Often we see some disagreements here on things,but in this case everyone agrees that inspector is way wrong.He needs to be corrected and educated or fired.What else does he fail for made up codes ?
Often we see some disagreements here on things,but in this case everyone agrees that inspector is way wrong.He needs to be corrected and educated or fired.What else does he fail for made up codes ?
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: A.F.C. I. protection in bath area????
I think very few need to be fired,most could be saved with some schooling.
I think very few need to be fired,most could be saved with some schooling.
stud696981
Senior Member
Re: A.F.C. I. protection in bath area????
Paul,
A case like this in no way shape or form fits the definition of extortion. The whole point here is that people need to be willing to challenge the inspector when it comes to off the wall stuff like this...........and not back down. If everyone plays his game, it will only get worse. Perhaps next week he will decide that the entire house has to be GFCI protected, or some other product that his relative is selling at the local hardware store.
Now, if threatened to do bodily harm or something similar, then that would most likely be a criminal offense and you could be prosecuted.
Paul,
A case like this in no way shape or form fits the definition of extortion. The whole point here is that people need to be willing to challenge the inspector when it comes to off the wall stuff like this...........and not back down. If everyone plays his game, it will only get worse. Perhaps next week he will decide that the entire house has to be GFCI protected, or some other product that his relative is selling at the local hardware store.
Now, if threatened to do bodily harm or something similar, then that would most likely be a criminal offense and you could be prosecuted.
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