A few panels minus two

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Re: A few panels minus two

Frank: Recessed in a wall cavity?
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Yes, it is getting sheetrock, so running boards not required, good catch. :)

m73214: Does the metal wire support above the panel need to be bonded?
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No. For example, steel studs don't have to be bonded, this could be considered similar. :)
 
Re: A few panels minus two

Originally posted by georgestolz:
So any 14-wire circuit that has a white wire twisted with it's ungrounded partner is an AFCI, as you do; any 12-wire or 10-wire that has the white and black twisted together are 240V circuits.
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Never a 20-amp AFCI circuit?
 
Re: A few panels minus two

Never say never, Larry. :D

To be clear, this is tract-home philosophy. I'll probably nev - :D - not pull a 12-wire 15 amp AFCI for a tract home.

In a custom, I like to keep a clipboard by the panel, number the homerun, and write the description on the number on the clipboard. In true nerdian fashion, I then go home, type it up with a panel schedule complete with company logo on my own time (ungrateful bums). :D

If I perchance had a 12-2 15-amp AFCI homerun, I would pull it to the 14 side of the panel, crimp it, number it, and keep going. Numbers take less space than writing on a schedule on the side.
 
Re: A few panels minus two

How do you fix the directory to the panel?
I have seen some that are on plain paper and inserted in plastic envelopes that have adhesive on the back. What do you do?
 
Re: A few panels minus two

I use MS -Word, I have templets made already and just fill in the blanks. I have our company logo and contact info at the top with any other warnings or instructions. Then I print it out on a heavy cheep photo paper which I laminate with a thin film plastic and also puts a sticky stuff on the back. Its a nice little machine I got from an art store for about $99.00. Looks very pro. :D
 
Re: A few panels minus two

BY George: Just so long as they remember to bond the can of the panel, right? It seems like that oversight is a common one, when folks get funky.
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Yep it is or they still put the MBJ screw in the hole next to the neutral and leave the grounding bar isolated :eek:

[ January 11, 2006, 02:07 AM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
 
Re: A few panels minus two

Originally posted by m73214:
What do you mean by " running boards " ?
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2x4's installed to protect the romex, to prevent things from striking it, and to keep people from hanging things on it.

See 334.15 and 334.23.
 
Re: A few panels minus two

Posted by m73214 via PM:
George.....So running boards are horizontal 2X4's spaced kind of like ladder rungs between the top of the panel and the top plate of the wall? Sorry, I've never come across the term before. Would they be required on both sides of the wall? I assume if the area is being drywalled, there is no need for them? What we do here is run a 2" pvc conduit from the top of the panel through the top plate and into the attic for our NM cables to run through. Also, in looking at 320.23 (A), I can't visualize running MN on top of floor joists. Wouldn't the floor be screwed into the floor joists 2X10's or 2X12's or are we talking about scissor type truss joists?
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Re: A few panels minus two

Originally posted by m73214:
George.....So running boards are horizontal 2X4's spaced kind of like ladder rungs between the top of the panel and the top plate of the wall? Sorry, I've never come across the term before.
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Don't be sorry or bashful at all. There are sometimes items or techniques we use every day that we never learn the "code term" for. I have posted this message in the thread, as there might be other folks out there who don't know and would greatly benefit from the discussion. :)

Imagine a receptacle outlet in a normal bedroom, where you drill a hole in the top plate, and run the romex straight down the wall into the box. When you staple the romex to the stud the box is nailed to, that is what a running board looks like.

The NM is snug against the 2x4 (or whatever you use) for the duration of the space where it needs protection.

Think about a basement, where it would be real easy to just get in line with the other trades, and run a trunk line down the center of the basement with the HVAC, plumbing, gas pipe, etc. You can't run small cables that way (334.15(C)), because they'd get damaged. Why? Coat hangers, skis, lumber, there are all kinds of stuff the occupant would hang or leans on the cables.

If you nail up 2x4's connected end-to-end along side the plumbing, HVAC, etc, then you can use them as running boards to follow the same path.

How you use a running board is open to interpretation. Some AHJ's interpret that you must staple cables to the side of a running board in a basement. Others will fail an installation unless you staple to the bottom of the board. It is open to interpretation.

Would they be required on both sides of the wall?
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No, a single board protects NM from all directions, in theory. ;)
I assume if the area is being drywalled, there is no need for them?
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Correct. Then, you fall back on support every 4.5' and within 12" of every box (or 8" of a single gang with no clamps).

[ January 14, 2006, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 
Re: A few panels minus two

What we do here is run a 2" pvc conduit from the top of the panel through the top plate and into the attic for our NM cables to run through.
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That's a tricky manuever to execute legally. See 312.5(C).

In addition, you'd need to derate all the conductors in the same pipe, according to Table 310.15(B)(2)(a).

All in all, that's a practice to avoid. :)

Leave a conduit for future use, if you'd like, though. :D
 
Re: A few panels minus two

Originally posted by georgestolz:
What we do here is run a 2" pvc conduit from the top of the panel through the top plate and into the attic for our NM cables to run through.
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That's a tricky manuever to execute legally. See 312.5(C).
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Tricky? :D

Nice understatement. :cool:

It is down right imposable as described.
 
Re: A few panels minus two

How's this.
871368452305_0_SM.jpg
784468452305_0_SM.jpg
Edited to let you guys know that I'm working on bigger pictures.

[ January 14, 2006, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: redfish ]
 
Re: A few panels minus two

Originally posted by iwire:
Originally posted by georgestolz:
What we do here is run a 2" pvc conduit from the top of the panel through the top plate and into the attic for our NM cables to run through.
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That's a tricky manuever to execute legally. See 312.5(C).
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Tricky? :D

Nice understatement. :cool:

It is down right imposable as described.
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Why would you say that? Just drill a 2 9/16" hole through the plate and install the 2" PVC.
 
Re: A few panels minus two

Originally posted by m73214:
Why would you say that? Just drill a 2 9/16" hole through the plate and install the 2" PVC.
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Because 312.5(C) requires each NM to be fastened to the box. Simply sleeving them down a PVC is a violation.

312.5 Cabinets, Cutout Boxes, and Meter Socket Enclosures.

(C) Cables. Where cable is used, each cable shall be secured to the cabinet, cutout box, or meter socket enclosure.
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There is an exception but it does not apply to a PVC in a wall heading into the attic.

[ January 15, 2006, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: A few panels minus two

As long as the race way is no longer than 10 ft and the sheathing is maintained and secured within 12 ins of the raceway and it is sealed and doesn`t penetrate the structural material,why is it not allowed.
 
Re: A few panels minus two

The way I read 312.5 (C), the exception would apply to this situation. I guess the only possible debate would be the definition of a structural ceiling. I don't believe the 2x4 or 2x6 top plate would be considered the structural ceiling.
 
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