A Simple Plan

[charlie b]

This is the part that I think the engineer got wrong:

. . . if we just changed the panel in place, inside the house, that the poco would not be involved and no inspection would be necessary.

No inspection? Well, perhaps not by the Poco. But this has to be a project that requires an electrical permit and an electrical inspection by the electrical AHJ. Is that not right? Tell me that an electrical inspector, looking at the interior work (panel replacement) would allow the panel to be replaced in place. It is just not an option.

 

[benaround]

George,

Friend of a friend or not, if you don't need this job maybe it's just time to walk away from

it. When they start off like this one rarely do they get better. jmo.

 

[LarryFine]

It doesn't matter how right I am about anything; if the person in charge is wrong, and the person subject to that authority presses their case, 99 times out of 100 (at least for me) I still lose the argument and wind up getting punished for the next dozen encounters.

I'm sick of it, I've seen it time and time again, and I've yet to win.

That does create a vacuum. Maybe you need to learn how to present your case better. Seriously, you've been mistreated.

I've challenged a ruling two or three times, only when I was sure I was right, I never 'lost', and I've never been punushed for it.

If I ever sensed I was being punished, I'd formally complain immediately; that's more unprofessional than an incorrect failure.

 

[cadpoint]

Originally Posted by zbang
Send an email to the poco engineer to "confirm his discussion w/ the customer" since you're now confused about the requirements and need to hear it from him directly.

ETA: I hate catching people out, but when it's something like this, I'll make an exception.

this is what I would do - good advice

I do beleive I read this whole thread correctly, and if I did, I don't concure with the above statements, but;

I understand the jest of this statement, as I read it, but this was a second engineer, it was an employee releationship at another POCO! The POCO nor the second engineer is suppling serving this the house!

What would that matter? Big "G", is setting himself up for a real hardship with a future interface with this second POCO, I'd say no thanks!

 

[Fulthrotl]

Guys, thanks for all the replies.

Agreed. There is also the question of getting the customer involved in the middle of something unnecessarily. Over time I have been kicked around enough by people in charge, that they are finally breaking my spirit. It doesn't matter how right I am about anything; if the person in charge is wrong, and the person subject to that authority presses their case, 99 times out of 100 (at least for me) I still lose the argument and wind up getting punished for the next dozen encounters.

I'm sick of it, I've seen it time and time again, and I've yet to win.

well, it seems you know what's going on, and there isn't much you can do
about it.

i've spouted my opinion here in the past, (and gotten hammered for being
wimpy) that the AHJ, and my relationship with them, is the difference
between profit and loss in many cases.

a previous employer had a 13 story core, parking structure, and exterior
lighting job. i was one of two foremen. the GF went nose to nose with
the building inspector, and won the first round. won the second round.
won the third round, elevating the issue to the level of the city council.

at the end of the day? the shop, who had 125 employees, closed it's door as
a result of the $400k out of pocket losses incurred on the job. this
was not counting liquidated damages for altering the critical path of
the project. all those losses were due SOLELY to the relationship with
the inspector.

they never did get a final electrical inspection.

customers come and go. AHJ's are as persistent as rust. sounds like time
to mend fences, if at all possible.

just my nickel's worth....

 

[cschmid]

Wow does no one have coffee with both parties and discuss this issue any more..we send emails about second hand info all in the effort to save cash..face to face conversations still are the best..my own personal opinion..But I am old fashion..

 

[zbang]

I'm not sure what people are thinking, but when engineer A tells me one thing, the customer tells me that the engineer B said something else, and maybe the ahj said a third thing, I really want to get some agreement on all that. It's not about who's right, it's about everybody agreeing with each other. Could be that B knew something that A didn't, or vis versa. Doesn't matter much, there is conflicting info that needs to be resolved.

Once that's all together, you can decide whether or not to take the job. OTOH, from the beginning of the thread, it did sound like the customer was trying to, ahem, bend the normal rules.

 

[growler]

What I found was an old farmhouse panel, it's contents melted beyond recogition, mounted inside a kitchen cabinet long ago.


He went on to tell me that the friendly engineer told him that if we just changed the panel in place, inside the house, that the POCO would not be involved and no inspection would be necessary. With no inspector breathing down my neck, I could just replace the panel in place.

After thinking about it some more I think this engineer is really taking a chance.

If he had never herd about the problem that would be one thing but now that he has vistited the site that is another. He is aware of a dangerous situation and the service is still connected. He really should have the meter pulled and refuse to reconnect until the service had been inspected and called (faxed ) in.

The utilities operate under a license to supply power and there are rules for them the same as for us. I'll bet this guy's boss would be real interested in the chances this guy is taking with their liability if something were to go wrong.

This engineer may be a good buddy to a fellow employee but is a bad employee because he is not doing his job. The power company is not legally allowed to do anything inside a house so to even give his opinion is taking a chance. He should be telling his buddy to call an electrical contractor and get the job inspected before power is restored. As rental property the guy probably can't even get a homeowner permit.

 

[George Stolz]

After all that has happened, can you envision the expression on my face today when my guy called me up and informed me that the line crew was hanging the riser and meter socket on the pole, instead of on the house as agreed upon...?

My head did not quite implode, so I managed to get to the rental place and get a trencher...

 

[480sparky]

.............My head did not quite implode, so I managed to get to the rental place and get a trencher...

Did ya stop by the gun shop as well?

 

[George Stolz]

On Friday, I sent the following email:

(Mr. POCO guy),

Now that the customer is unclear, and I am confused, I will state what I believe to be true and you can correct me on any point:

1. The overhead run at xxxx E 24th is now acceptable, and will remain in place. (POCO) will cut down the tree.
2. (POCO) will disconnect power from the overhead run, and (my company) will demo the old riser.
3. (POCO) will supply a meter and a riser (complete with weatherhead and wire), and (POCO) will attach it to the house.
4. (POCO) will directly bill the customer for their services, to the tune of $800.
5. (My Company) will connect to the meter with a 100A outdoor main-breaker load center.
6. (My Company) will arrange an inspection in the afternoon.
7. (POCO) will return the same afternoon to energize it.

Is this correct?

Provided the house is still standing, work will commence on Wednesday, January 27 at 8AM. Feel free to call me at xxx-xxxx if any of the above is incorrect, and/or if I need to schedule this work to be completed with anyone else at (POCO).

He didn't feel it necessary to correct me. I cc'ed the customer on this email, and he was as surprised and dismayed as I was when I let him know that trenching was about the only feasible option, given no choice.

I think we'll pay the POCO a visit and chat with the guy's boss. I have no idea whether the miscommunication was intentional sabotage or simple incompetence, but either way, it should be addressed. I figure we'll head over there tomorrow, after the dust has settled.

When I asked the guy what was going on, he said that the HO had not shown up with a check for the "$1000" to mount the service on the house, so he had turned in the work order for the pole-mounted service instead.

 

[weressl]

Maybe his boss needs to know about these little slips of the tongue of his. At least then you go on record and any potential future malarky from that person can become genuine harassment. I'd send a letter to the poco.

He did NOT hear that directly from the POCO representative so it is hearsay.

 

[mivey]

He did NOT hear that directly from the POCO representative so it is hearsay.

Name that quote:
"I'm a paid gladiator. I fight for my clients. Most clients aren't square shooters. That's why they're clients."

 

[George Stolz]

this customer is going to be trouble

Sure enough, got the angry phone call tonight. He made it clear that I am a poor representative of the human race and should consider a self post-term abortion.

Another satisfied customer.

 

[milehiwire]

Sure enough, got the angry phone call tonight. He made it clear that I am a poor representative of the human race and should consider a self post-term abortion.

Another satisfied customer.

Suicide, George, suicide............

 

[LarryFine]

Name that quote:
"I'm a paid gladiator. I fight for my clients. Most clients aren't square shooters. That's why they're clients."

Hint that I know: "They've got themselves into trouble. It's up to me to get them out. I have to shoot square with them. I can't always expect them to shoot square with me."

Bonus hint: 1933

 

[LarryFine]

Sure enough, got the angry phone call tonight. He made it clear that I am a poor representative of the human race and should consider a self post-term abortion.

Another satisfied customer.

That really creates a vacuum.

 

[George Stolz]

After the call, which I fielded poorly, I drafted an email explaining why things happened the way they did, and threw the engineer under the bus where he belongs. Since the customer made a point about reminding me the engineer said I was over priced again tonight, I figured I'd remind him what his darling friend pushed the situation to. We'll see what happens, he may yet see the light.

 

[LarryFine]

And you dared to name this thread "A Simple Plan." :roll:

 

[George Stolz]

That was mostly because it was a fairly routine job, and ultimately wound up mirroring the movie, with someone being fed into a wood chipper.