A Sobering Experience

[ryan_618]

Re: A Sobering Experience

From my understanding, the only times you are permitted to work live are:

1)troubleshooting to measure voltage.

2)when shutting down would cause a greater liklihood of personal danger (such as shutting of a ventilation system in a hazorfous enviroment).


Both instances require proper PPE, of course.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: A Sobering Experience

Bob,
Ryan, has the correct rules for working things hot. Lighting in a store is not permitted by either rule.

But I work at many more facilities that not working hot will get you tossed out even faster.

I won't work things hot any more except for the permitted troubleshooting. When they fire me, I will file complaints with OSHA and NLRB and possibly a civil rights lawsuit. They will wish that they had let me lock the circuit out.
Electricians will continue to get killed by working things hot until we all refuse to do it.
Don

 

[iwire]

Re: A Sobering Experience

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
Electricians will continue to get killed by working things hot until we all refuse to do it.
Don

I can not disagree with you there.

I just do not see how we are going to get us to say all at once say "no more"

I work hot less now then ever before.

But I will be out the door if I try to shut down a large retail store for simple repairs.

No one is going to be let go for not working hot, they will be downsized when convenient.

I wish I could say I will not work hot, but I have to feed the family and I do not believe in lawsuits to do it.

 

[tom baker]

Re: A Sobering Experience

There was a very interesting presentation at the IAEI meeting in Orlando last September, by Mike Callahan of the JTAC, on electrical safety. He had a video of an accident at Florida Power and Light. Two lineman were installing a meter on a 277/480 service, they were wearing appropiate PPE, one lead of the wiggy shorted to ground, boom! They had severe burns, and they were in compliance.

Mike stated that we have got to stop working hot. He mentioned that the IBEW used to teach to test for voltage by touching with fingers, you could determine the voltage....

 

[brian john]

Re: A Sobering Experience

IWIRE:

If you are working in 480/277 VAC panels hot, or switchgear hot. I don't mean measuring voltage, I mean replacing parts connecting wiring ect and your customer insist you do then.

1. You do not understand the possible effects of arcing ground faults.
OR
2. You have not adequately explained to your customers the nature of arcing ground faults and their liability in your injury or death.

I have shut down, major hospitals, data centers, Government buildings and just did a job every president since Teddy Roosevelt has wanted to do; shut down the Washington Post. If these facilities can go down surely a store can shut down.


Everyone tells us they can not go down, when there is a blow up from their lack of concern they are usually down for a few days.

We had a local hotel with a 4000 amp bolted pressure switch, the IR scan showed the switch was on fire, melting. The customer was told they had to go down ASAP. They ignored the recommendation when the gear faulted they were down 6 months.

I have not seen a facility that can not be shut down. Scheduling and hours of work may be tough but..........sure beats the burn unit or a funeral.

JUST MY OPINION

 

[iwire]

Re: A Sobering Experience

Brian you are right, all places can be shut down.

I have been involved with some major shutdowns.

Never the Washington Post

Don is correct until all of say no to this it will keep happening.

It is my choice, I can do it, or they can get someone else who will.

I did not say I prefer it this way.

I am just a realist.

And no I do not often work in 480 volt gear live.

To add a breaker it gets shut down, to pull conductors in doubtful.

 

[Guest]

Re: A Sobering Experience

Bob,
Please be careful out there. Your wife & kids would miss you. We'd miss you. We've all gone commando, but when you get right down to it, it's not worth it. Talk to the compliance officer in the organization and schedule the down time. If it means two trips, then bill them for two trips.

Walmart is smarting from a big fine right now for hiring illegal contract workers for janitorial. They contracted to avoid the liability, but the court or AHJ saw otherwise and fined them $10,000 for each illegal contract worker.

All that aside, we want you safe.

 

[websparky]

Re: A Sobering Experience

Here ya go;

Volts Divided By Resistance in Ohms = Current In Amps

120 Volts Divided By 100,000 Ohms = 0.0012 Amps Or 1.2 Milliamps

1.2 Milliamps Is Perception Threshold

10-20 Milliamps Is Painful; Let-Go Threshold; Can Kill In Time

100 Milliamps Can Kill In A Second; Can?t Let Go

200 Milliamps Kills; Causes Heart Fibrillation; Burns Human Flesh

Scary, isn't it!

 

[russellroberts]

Re: A Sobering Experience

This thread makes me feel blessed to have a say in what I'll do and won't do.

When it comes to most hot work these days,I just tell them it'll have to be shut off,if the customer won't allow it,they see the tailgate of my truck as I'm leaving.

As I said, I'm fortunate.

Russell

 

[jro]

Re: A Sobering Experience

Yes, we all have done shutdowns, but you won't go to the Washington Posts and shut it down, the day you find out a 277v breaker needs to be replaced, the way to do it is to schedule a shutdown if need be, but to change a ballast, you need to shut down

 

[tonyi]

Re: A Sobering Experience

Originally posted by jro:
Now I have done lighting retrofit for a major dept. store chain, with 10 to 15 electricians working in different parts of the store, if I shut down, we are in the dark.

Trying to save a few bucks on the original installation increases the hassles and risk involved in the (inevitable) later maintenance.

For a bit more wire and a few more breakers, individual maintenance areas could be localized a whole lot better so this hot work can be avoided.

TCO apparently isn't part of the value engineering vocabulary. Never enough time to do it right, but there's always enough time to do it over

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: A Sobering Experience

jro,

but to change a ballast, you need to shut down? even with the 277v breaker you could do it hot, just take the necessary steps to do it safely and you should be ok.

It is an OSHA violation to change a ballast hot.
don

 

[jro]

Re: A Sobering Experience

Tonyi what was installed in the original installation was what was available at the time, I don't think anybody was trying to cut corners, today mans advancment has showed him he can save energy by using a better built ballast and bulb, that is why we now have lighting retrofit, as for the extra wire and breakers part I don't get what you are getting at, if you work in these areas you are talking about you still need lighting to work by shutting down would still leave us in the dark, and besides we would retrofit one entire store after hours, in one night, that is why we would need to work all over the store at one time, not work one ligthing circuit at a time over a period of x amount of days or nights. So like Iwire states, somtimes shutting down is not an option.

 

[batch]

Re: A Sobering Experience

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
jro,

but to change a ballast, you need to shut down? even with the 277v breaker you could do it hot, just take the necessary steps to do it safely and you should be ok.

It is an OSHA violation to change a ballast hot.
don

Not only is it a violation but the word should is an indicator that something COULD go wrong. People often forget about the unexpected. Someone bumps the ladder or lift or any number of possiblitys.

Any of the "we have to do it hot" can easily be countered. To say that a whole store must be shut down to safely deenergize a ballast for replacement or that turning off the fixture lighting to be worked on would leave you with out light. Come on!

Investing in a drop light either powered by a cord or as most I know all ready own a good battery operated light source would solve the work light problem.

I would think most in here are willing to do what is needed to ensure that their installations are violation free and safe for the public. Shouldn't we make or work safe for us too?

JMHO

 

[rrrusty]

Re: A Sobering Experience

If I get into a precarious situation I get my rubber mat out of the truck and put that on the floor to try to isolate me from direct ground; I wear 600V shoes; and I wear leather gloves any time I work something hot like a c/b replacement in a restaurant;(once in a while) after getting hung up doing a trim on a circuit that I forgot was hot, I test every wire; I am truly grateful to still be here

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: A Sobering Experience

The electrical shock is not the biggest safety issue when working on equipment with a high fault current. The arc-flash and arc-blast are bigger problems.
The blast can produce pressures that exceed 2000 psi and the arc can cause 3rd degree burns 10' or more feet away from the fault.
Don

 

[Guest]

Re: A Sobering Experience

Additionally, even a small tingle can cause a ladder fall. Ladders are dangerous. Working hot on a ladder is doubly dangerous. Working 480 hot on a ladder is triply dangerous. Working hot on a ladder while distracted is...

And so forth. There are so many ways to get hurt while working hot.

You get the point(s).