AC solar and inverter

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
Lithium-Ion Battery cost ten times as much compared to a garden variety LEAD-ACID battery. One 100Amp- hour Lithium-Ion costs over $1000 a pop--while a lead-acid is about $115.
Pretty sure that info is out of date, and that lifetime $/kWh cycled through the battery is now lower for lithium ion than for lead-acid. Various references that come up on a simple google search support that; I'm not sure what an authoritative reference would be, though.

Cheers, Wayne
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
If you are installing batteries in a room—Class X drywall on walls and ceilings is the least of your worries.
Lead acid batteries give off hydrogen gas while charging and even more so when overcharged.
Usually I have seen that addressed with sealed battery boxes with vents to the outside.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
If you are installing batteries in a room—Class X drywall on walls and ceilings is the least of your worries.
Lead acid batteries give off hydrogen gas while charging and even more so when overcharged.

Of course you can use sealed AGM or Lithium-Ion Batteries that don’t give off explosive hydrogen gas—but I don’t think OP is well prepared for that. Also fire danger is ever present.

Lithium-Ion Battery cost ten times as much compared to a garden variety LEAD-ACID battery. One 100Amp- hour Lithium-Ion costs over $1000 a pop--while a lead-acid is about $115.

Here’s more info:


What Wayne said. Lead acid can't be cycled as deeply or as many times, and lithium has come way down in price. So on a kwh cycled per lifetime lithium is cheaper now.

Also most systems are not installed with electricians connecting batteries with 12V posts. Although that is still a thing, most are 'Energy Storage Systems' with an AC or power-electronic-controlled DC output.

The energy storage scene isn't anything like it was in 2016, let alone 2011.
 

SceneryDriver

Senior Member
Location
NJ
Occupation
Electrical and Automation Designer
If you are installing batteries in a room—Class X drywall on walls and ceilings is the least of your worries.
Lead acid batteries give off hydrogen gas while charging and even more so when overcharged.

Of course you can use sealed AGM or Lithium-Ion Batteries that don’t give off explosive hydrogen gas—but I don’t think OP is well prepared for that. Also fire danger is ever present.

Lithium-Ion Battery cost ten times as much compared to a garden variety LEAD-ACID battery. One 100Amp- hour Lithium-Ion costs over $1000 a pop--while a lead-acid is about $115.

Here’s more info:

LiFePO4 battery chemistry is the way to go in my opinion. Nearly the energy density of Li-ion, without the explode-y fire tendencies. We use LiFePO4 batteries almost exclusively when powering portable lighting and automation effects in TV studios. The directors like the long run times, light weight, and safety.

Were I to do a solar-backed storage solution, it would use LiFePO4. Tesla Powerwalls are a neat product, but I'm not really a fan of their close-source, almost-impossible-to-repair business model. There's a reason I don't own a MacBook.

Powerwalls make me nervous; I'm always concerned about a company forcing software updates without permission or any option to skip it, or bricking my stuff because Elon throws a tantrum. Equipment like this shouldn't NEED an internet connection in order to operate. If the point is to keep my home powered when utilities are unavailable, why need an internet connection to function/monitor? It's like my old printer refusing to print B&W when cyan ink ran out; it makes little sense.


SceneryDriver



SceneryDriver
 

myspark

Senior Member
Location
SCV Ca, USA
Occupation
Retired EE
What Wayne said. Lead acid can't be cycled as deeply or as many times, and lithium has come way down in price. So on a kwh cycled per lifetime lithium is cheaper now.

Also most systems are not installed with electricians connecting batteries with 12V posts. Although that is still a thing, most are 'Energy Storage Systems' with an AC or power-electronic-controlled DC output.

The energy storage scene isn't anything like it was in 2016, let alone 2011.
I have been pricing these Li-ions since the start of this year and I found one make sold by Amazon.

For single unit 100 Ah, 12V is $980.

You throw-in tax without shipping plus CA recycling effort add-on and you are talking over 1 grand.

I want one for my RV.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
Not sure if this is a reasonable vendor, but they list $/kWh-cycle for each of their products. Lithium LFP has the least expensive option, at $0.09 / kWh-cycle. The cheapest lead acid option is $0.15 / kWh-cycle.


Cheers, Wayne
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
I have been pricing these Li-ions since the start of this year and I found one make sold by Amazon.

For single unit 100 Ah, 12V is $980.

You throw-in tax without shipping plus CA recycling effort add-on and you are talking over 1 grand.

I want one for my RV.
The pricing wayne posted seems to be better. And ESS pricing we get as a contractor is even better.
 

myspark

Senior Member
Location
SCV Ca, USA
Occupation
Retired EE
The pricing wayne posted seems to be better. And ESS pricing we get as a contractor is even better.
I am a C10 license holder. I am also an engineer and registered Microsoft Network Engineer.
I hold them all as inactive since I retired. But I can buy electrical parts/material from any supply house.
Not easy for Lithium-Ion batteries for general consumer application.
 

myspark

Senior Member
Location
SCV Ca, USA
Occupation
Retired EE
Not sure if this is a reasonable vendor, but they list $/kWh-cycle for each of their products. Lithium LFP has the least expensive option, at $0.09 / kWh-cycle. The cheapest lead acid option is $0.15 / kWh-cycle.


Cheers, Wayne
From your links--the cheapest Li-Ion battery costs $805 no shipping.

100Ah 12 volts Li-Ion.

You have to pick it up from their warehouse in Ukiah, CA.
But Ukiah is 470 miles from me. The one I saw on Amazon costs $980 and they deliver it free.
I believe this one is made in USA.
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
From your links--the cheapest Li-Ion battery costs $805 no shipping.

100Ah 12 volts Li-Ion.

You have to pick it up from their warehouse in Ukiah, CA.
But Ukiah is 470 miles from me. The one I saw on Amazon costs $980 and they deliver it free.
I believe this one is made in USA.
Be really careful to understand what you are getting on Amazon these days. They pretty much let anyone sell using their system and there are some sketchy vendors on there. So if it's Bob's House of Questionable Batteries selling through Amazon know your vendor.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Be really careful to understand what you are getting on Amazon these days. They pretty much let anyone sell using their system and there are some sketchy vendors on there. So if it's Bob's House of Questionable Batteries selling through Amazon know your vendor.
The links were to Real Goods (very trustworthy IMO) but the point is well taken.
 

caribconsult

Senior Member
Location
Añasco, Puerto Rico
Occupation
Retired computer consultant
I also heard Powerwalls in TX that drained overnight and wouldn't boot up following day even with lots of sun. Also, people couldn't monitor Powerwall SOC when cell service was down so they couldn't tell how much battery charge was left.
The PW cell service can be very erratic. You can configure it to your in-house network connection via wifi, or via an ethernet cable right to your router. You have to enter the PW's own interface using the built-in TEG wifi to do this. In our house, the PW is too far from the router to run a cable directly to it, so I rigged up a Ethernet over Powerline bridge and that works nicely. Message me if you want more details.
 

caribconsult

Senior Member
Location
Añasco, Puerto Rico
Occupation
Retired computer consultant
Be really careful to understand what you are getting on Amazon these days. They pretty much let anyone sell using their system and there are some sketchy vendors on there. So if it's Bob's House of Questionable Batteries selling through Amazon know your vendor.
There are many unscrupulous vendors of solar gear out there. They'd have you believe you can dispense with the grid completely and have no more electric bills. I think this is entirely delusional. We live in Puerto Rico, we have LOTS of sun, but somedays there's no sun...just cloudy and rainy. You can't live on the sun if there isn't any. So while we are off-grid 99.9% of the time, there are days when there's not enough sun to charge the PW sufficiently to carry us through the night and into the next day when hopefully, we'll have sun. So what do you do? You don't want to discharge the PW to the point where it shuts down...it might not restart itself without a visit from a tech, again, depending on how discharged it is and when the sun returns. So when that no-sun day arrives, we open the grid breaker around sundown and let the grid charge the PW to about 85%, then shut it off, go to bed and hope there's sun next day. We don't leave the grid breaker on because we don't have a sell-back system and don't want one. Also, if we are doing laundry and need to use the electric dryer, which soaks up almost 4Kw, we unload the house completely from the PW with a separate switch, and put the house directly on the grid. The PW will continue to charge even faster, since there's no load on it, and when the laundry is finished, the house goes back on the PW, all with just that one separate switch (not the grid breaker mentioned above). We've been using it this way for nearly 4 years and our monthly electric bill hovers around $12.00, and we've NEVER not had power. The number of times we've needed the grid to top off the PW are few and far between, but sometimes you have to have it. If there's no sun and no grid, which has happened a few times, we have a gasoline generator which powers the whole house. No, it doesn't charge the PW, but we have power and hopefully the sun or the grid returns soon. Our installer didn't want to install it like that...he was going to eliminate the generator but I told him we're paying for it, it will get installed as we wish, which he did, all it required was that one extra separate switch to take the house off the PW and onto the grid, and the vendor threw that it as a freebie. Tesla says it's just fine and completely with specs. Just message me if you want more details, but I think we have the perfect combination of power supplies.
 
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