AC Units tripping GFI protection

[SSDriver]

So the question is what is different about the Siemens GFCI's?

If the manufacturers want to push the CMP's to keep expanding GFCI requirements sure would be nice if they fixed some those bugs that apparently Siemens has found a way to fix.

I agree it would definitely be nice. Same with AFCI. I'm not sure how or what they do in the PCB's to filter out the noise an inverter creates but it has fixed issues I've had with Square D, GE, and Eaton GFCI's.

 

[kwired]

I agree it would definitely be nice. Same with AFCI. I'm not sure how or what they do in the PCB's to filter out the noise an inverter creates but it has fixed issues I've had with Square D, GE, and Eaton GFCI's

Probably something simple and sort of cheap, like adding some ferrite cores or something, but others won't do it and leave you chasing ghosts with your troubleshooting.

 

[mbrooke]

So the question is what is different about the Siemens GFCI's?

If the manufacturers want to push the CMP's to keep expanding GFCI requirements sure would be nice if they fixed some those bugs that apparently Siemens has found a way to fix.

IMO I think it best that manufacturers not keep expanding them.

 

[mwm1752]

My issues have been solved for the time being -

Temporary Variance – Article 210.8 (F), 2020 NEC

On June 23, 2021, the State Electrical Board moved to grant a Temporary Variance to Article 210.8 (F) of the 2020 National Electrical Code as the Board found that: The Electrical Board has received several inquiries and complaints regarding this code change, impacting ductless mini splits, and other relevant installations, causing GFCI tripping. HVAC manufacturer’s designs have a lower voltage for the power conversion equipment and controls, and in some cases, when using a control transformer, they use the equipment grounding conductor supplying the HVAC equipment for the grounded conductor return path, which is putting a large amount of power leakage current on the equipment ground. Also, due to the use of the power conversion equipment, the change from AC to DC, and the ramping up and down in frequency, a leakage current could occur and be problematic. Additional requirements/provisions: This Temporary Variance will expire: a. One-year from the date the Board grants the request and will be revisited for extension if needed; b. If the National Fire Protection Association issues an applicable Tentative Interim Amendment; or, c. Upon the Board’s adoption of the 2023 NEC. For the Colorado State Electrical Board, Joyce J. Young Program Director ​

 

[infinity]

I thought that the CMPs were made up of smart people? Everyone that voted for this code change should resign.

 

[mbrooke]

I thought that the CMPs were made up of smart people? Everyone that voted for this code change should resign.

Uummm... Lets just say they are still learning about basic electrical theory.

 

[mbrooke]

My issues have been solved for the time being -

​ Temporary Variance – Article 210.8 (F), 2020 NEC

​ On June 23, 2021, the State Electrical Board moved to grant a Temporary Variance to Article 210.8 (F) of the 2020 National Electrical Code as the Board found that: The Electrical Board has received several inquiries and complaints regarding this code change, impacting ductless mini splits, and other relevant installations, causing GFCI tripping. HVAC manufacturer’s designs have a lower voltage for the power conversion equipment and controls, and in some cases, when using a control transformer, they use the equipment grounding conductor supplying the HVAC equipment for the grounded conductor return path, which is putting a large amount of power leakage current on the equipment ground. Also, due to the use of the power conversion equipment, the change from AC to DC, and the ramping up and down in frequency, a leakage current could occur and be problematic. Additional requirements/provisions: This Temporary Variance will expire: a. One-year from the date the Board grants the request and will be revisited for extension if needed; b. If the National Fire Protection Association issues an applicable Tentative Interim Amendment; or, c. Upon the Board’s adoption of the 2023 NEC. For the Colorado State Electrical Board, Joyce J. Young Program Director ​

Said it before, said it again. The equation Xc=1/2pifc says a VFD will cause leakage exceeding 5ma.

 

[jap]

If there's an issue with appliance leaking voltage it needs to be addressed and made safe.

I'm a big fan of Ground Fault protection for safety, however, I am not a fan of being responsible for ground faults tripping due to an issue with the product I'm providing power for not being GFI compatible.

They will call me when their refrigerators, freezers and now dryers, ranges and AC units aren't working when they actually should be calling the manufacturer of the product that's tripping the GFI protection.

When it was just for standard 15 and 20a 125v receptacle outlets in a bathroom or outdoors it was one thing. Most of those times there actually was an issue with whatever the customer plugged in to make the GFI trip. and protected them.

If the new GFI rules are put into play I think somewhere along the line the manufactures should be required to install an in line GFI protector (where required) ahead of their product's 1st termination point that we connect to.

JAP>

 

[don_resqcapt19]

If there's an issue with appliance leaking voltage it needs to be addressed and made safe.

I'm a big fan of Ground Fault protection for safety, however, I am not a fan of being responsible for ground faults tripping due to an issue with the product I'm providing power for not being GFI compatible.

They will call me when their refrigerators, freezers and now dryers, ranges and AC units aren't working when they actually should be calling the manufacturer of the product that's tripping the GFI protection.

When it was just for standard 15 and 20a 125v receptacle outlets in a bathroom or outdoors it was one thing. Most of those times there actually was an issue with whatever the customer plugged in to make the GFI trip. and protected them.

If the new GFI rules are put into play I think somewhere along the line the manufactures should be required to install an in line GFI protector (where required) ahead of their product's 1st termination point that we connect to.

JAP>

Equipment like hard wired air conditioners do not have a maximum leakage current requirement in the product listing standard.

The assumption of the standard writers is that the required EGC will take care of the leakage current on hard wired equipment.

The proposed next edition of the standard for hard wired air conditioning equipment will have a maximum permitted leakage current as part of the listing standard....but the maximum permitted leakage is 12mA.

 

[mbrooke]

The thing is it is physically impossible to reduce the leakage current below 6ma in some equipment. Its just unrealistic.

 

[jap]

Equipment like hard wired air conditioners do not have a maximum leakage current requirement in the product listing standard.

The assumption of the standard writers is that the required EGC will take care of the leakage current on hard wired equipment.

The proposed next edition of the standard for hard wired air conditioning equipment will have a maximum permitted leakage current as part of the listing standard....but the maximum permitted leakage is 12mA.

12ma is more than what we're going to be able to get a standard GFI protected circuit to hold at unless we go to 30ma ground fault protection for equipment which doesn't make the install any more safe for personnel in my mind.

JAP>

 

[kwired]

12ma is more than what we're going to be able to get a standard GFI protected circuit to hold at unless we go to 30ma ground fault protection for equipment which doesn't make the install any more safe for personnel in my mind.

JAP>

For something that generally should have an intact EGC, 100 mA is even plenty of protection.

They have gone wild with GFCI requirements in the name of safety profits for those pushing to keep expanding code.

4-6 mA is good idea for things with 5-15 and 5-20 cord caps that end up missing EGC pin or where possible immersion of portable appliances/tools/etc. is a higher risk in say a sink, tub, etc.