Adding Soft-Start to existing motor for standby generator

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CelectricB

Member
Location
Texas Panhandle
Occupation
MEP Designer
We have an existing 100 HP centrifugal submersible pump and down-hole motor. We need to size a standby generator for it, and are thinking about adding a soft-start to decrease starting current so a smaller generator can be bought instead.

If we use the 80% booster start pulse, the big thing we'd need to check is if the 64% left of starting torque can overcome the water column required to start the variable torque load of the water lines. Is there anything we're missing?

Kind regards,
CelectricB
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
Soft starts drop the voltage so the amps go up. Normally the service needs to be over sized to prevent OCPD from tripping
I have done a 100 hp submersible and 125 hp on VFD. It never came up to use a softstart, and out integrator was very experienced in SS and VFDs
For use the advantage of the VFD is we could set control either on level or flow. Flow was nice, as over time the pumping level would drop and the VFD would increase flow to maintain what we wanted.
Personally I would go with VFD.
Softstart I would suggest coordinating with generator mfg, for the generator its all about voltage regulation. If the gen voltage drops about 20% it could drop out the controls
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
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Electrical Engineer
Forget the 80% boost, that feature is pointless for a pump.

If your generator is strained, set the current limit for what the generator can handle and go into that current limit immediately, no ramping into it. From my experience, it’s going to take 300-350% current and depending on the lifting height, 10-20 seconds.
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
I had two water pump stations with SS, one 45 hp and the other 75 Hp vertical line shaft turbines. Each station had pump control valves and check valves on the discharge. The SS worked fine.
We put a SS on a 100 HP fire pump that started against full system pressure of 80 psi. The fire pump would not soft start and went immediately to full speed as it was drawing full current on start. The two pump stations were not drawing full current and with those we had a secret code and extended the ramp to 60 seconds
So my caution for your set up, are you pumping into full system pressure or is there a pump control valve that is open to atmosphere when the pump starts and closes slowly putting the pump into the system?
I had a generator sized to run a 100 hp multistage submersible, it was something like a 250 KW genny with a 350 KW oversized alternator. It started the submersible just fine due to the oversize alternator.
You may not need a smaller generator but a larger alternator. Get the generator mfg involved with sizing
Also take a look at a VFD, it will give you the most flexibility
 

texie

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Occupation
Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
Unfortunately, a single large motor powered by a genset is problematic. Tom makes some good points. but you want to be careful with submersible pumps as they are somewhat special and most of the manufactures are somewhat picky about the type of starter.
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Unfortunately, a single large motor powered by a genset is problematic. Tom makes some good points. but you want to be careful with submersible pumps as they are somewhat special and most of the manufactures are somewhat picky about the type of starter.
Several decades ago I had a pumping station with two vertical pump motors and soft starters. When on the generator one pump would start and reach speed with a Schneider Electric Altistart but the other pump would not reach speed. Both pumps would work fine with a Saftronics starter. We were able to supply either motor from either starter. I don't remember the final solution but it involved the generator manufacturer.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Several decades ago I had a pumping station with two vertical pump motors and soft starters. When on the generator one pump would start and reach speed with a Schneider Electric Altistart but the other pump would not reach speed. Both pumps would work fine with a Saftronics starter. We were able to supply either motor from either starter. I don't remember the final solution but it involved the generator manufacturer.
Yeah, there used to be an issue with generator AVRs and some types of soft starters because the soft start firing was affecting the AVR, which then would affect the soft starter SCR firing sequence, and it just oscillated back and forth. The generator mfrs solved the issue because it was simpler to do at their end, involving a simple filter on the AVR sensing circuit. CAT even used to sell an aftermarket retrofit filter, but they stopped a long time ago, figuring that all of the old systems had run their course.

History lesson for the day:
Ironically it was the old OLD Saftronics starters that were the problem, and all of the "children" soft start designs that they fostered in the market. Saftronics themselves fixed it later, but for all of their competitors that had copied their original Phase Locked Loop firing circuit, the problem persisted. In the earliest days of Soft Starters, there were two original players, Vectrol and South African Electronics, who sold under Saftronics here in North America because of the apartheid issues. The soft starter designs that were based on the original Vectrol product (Westinghouse, Motortronics, Nordic and Allen Bradley) never had that issue because they used what's called a "picket fence" firing scheme. Everything else on the market was either brand-labeled FROM Saftronics, or copied from them (Benshaw, Baldor, Cutler Hammer, Square D.), or later imported from Europe as copies from Saftronics (Siemens, Telemecanique and Agut / GE).
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I had two water pump stations with SS, one 45 hp and the other 75 Hp vertical line shaft turbines. Each station had pump control valves and check valves on the discharge. The SS worked fine.
We put a SS on a 100 HP fire pump that started against full system pressure of 80 psi. The fire pump would not soft start and went immediately to full speed as it was drawing full current on start. The two pump stations were not drawing full current and with those we had a secret code and extended the ramp to 60 seconds
So my caution for your set up, are you pumping into full system pressure or is there a pump control valve that is open to atmosphere when the pump starts and closes slowly putting the pump into the system?
I had a generator sized to run a 100 hp multistage submersible, it was something like a 250 KW genny with a 350 KW oversized alternator. It started the submersible just fine due to the oversize alternator.
You may not need a smaller generator but a larger alternator. Get the generator mfg involved with sizing
Also take a look at a VFD, it will give you the most flexibility
Maybe I'm not seeing it, but how do you start a pump against full system pressure unless it is positive displacement type pump and likely with some sort of means to prevent back spin?

An inline pump particularly a centrifugal pump can be in a pressurized line, but is equal pressure on both sides when not running so starting load is still similar to when you have non pre-pressurized lines.
 

CelectricB

Member
Location
Texas Panhandle
Occupation
MEP Designer
I had two water pump stations with SS, one 45 hp and the other 75 Hp vertical line shaft turbines. Each station had pump control valves and check valves on the discharge. The SS worked fine.
We put a SS on a 100 HP fire pump that started against full system pressure of 80 psi. The fire pump would not soft start and went immediately to full speed as it was drawing full current on start. The two pump stations were not drawing full current and with those we had a secret code and extended the ramp to 60 seconds
So my caution for your set up, are you pumping into full system pressure or is there a pump control valve that is open to atmosphere when the pump starts and closes slowly putting the pump into the system?
I had a generator sized to run a 100 hp multistage submersible, it was something like a 250 KW genny with a 350 KW oversized alternator. It started the submersible just fine due to the oversize alternator.
You may not need a smaller generator but a larger alternator. Get the generator mfg involved with sizing
Also take a look at a VFD, it will give you the most flexibility
The existing 125hp motor pumping into working pressure 55psi is existing and working with a SS. We watched the amps for a few seconds on the LED screen and it started at 300% until ramping down to FLA in about 5 seconds. Given that it's working on the existing system, sizing the generator to a starting kVA using the 300% amps and full voltage seems most sensible place to start?
 

CelectricB

Member
Location
Texas Panhandle
Occupation
MEP Designer
For anyone still figuring out generator sizing, there's a great comment by Hameedulla-Ekhlas on the post I linked below

 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
Maybe I'm not seeing it, but how do you start a pump against full system pressure unless it is positive displacement type pump and likely with some sort of means to prevent back spin?

An inline pump particularly a centrifugal pump can be in a pressurized line, but is equal pressure on both sides when not running so starting load is still similar to when you have non pre-pressurized lines.
The fire pump takes suction from a reservoir, typically 15 psi, then boosts to 85-90 psi, a check valve separates suction from discharge
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The fire pump takes suction from a reservoir, typically 15 psi, then boosts to 85-90 psi, a check valve separates suction from discharge
But how is there pressure across the pump when not running, unless maybe not a centrifugal pump?

Typical submersible well pump has check valve in the discharge line someplace, often right at the pump or even within the housing at the outlet point, but the pump is not starting against the water system pressure the check valve blocks that off until the pump actually is started and is sped up enough to overcome the pressure against the check valve. Any pressure in the pump would be in reference to something outside the pump, there is no differential within the pump when not running which would mean no pressure to start against either such pressure can rapidly increase as pump accelerates though.
 

paulengr

Senior Member
Some misunderstandings here. A centrifugal pump requires fewer amps to run if it is stalled like pumping against a closed valve. This actually helps fans and pumps start on power limited systems. It’s when it’s wide open that it is harder to start.

A centrifugal pump torque curve is basically proportional to the square of speed. A pump motor pulls effectively LRA right up until it reaches peak torque/pull out torque. After that point it quickly drops down as the motor accelerates to normal running speed. If it stalls at all it will be somewhere close to peak torque but never “gets over the hump”.

On soft starts for pumps usually set it to 200% of FLA then ramp to 350% in 1-2 seconds then current limit until full speed on SS that can do it. If not then just current limit at 350%. That short ramp is just to ease into full torque…easier on the windings. If you need to control pressure (water hammer) then a longer ramp time is more appropriate but to minimize breaker/generator issues whatever the maximum current is, get it over with. Obviously 350% is also your generator sizing target. You might get away with less but there’s more risk.
 
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