Advice on a shelf lighting product

[Jerramundi]

I have a job on Tuesday, a basement finish with a glass-wall wine room. I'll be installing COB strip on the backs of floating wine racks.

Best of luck with that one sir. At least you got the wall to run cable in. I'm still toying with the OP's requested design and various ways to run the cables. It's an interesting puzzle to try and solve. The way I see it so far is almost like a ladder diagram, but getting it so each shelf would be removable for replacing the various sections is the interesting question.

 

[goldstar]

Ahh to be wealthy and have money to spend on accent lighting that serves literally no practical purpose, lol.

That's it in a nutshell. There will be (2) 18-24" wide shelves, floor to ceiling. They all say it's a nice feature but when you tell them it's going to be $$$$ suddenly it's not so nice a feature. I'm not sure I want to spin my wheels trying to make this happen, not to mention the job is about 25 miles away. I've already been there once to survey. My truck gets 12 mi/gal x $5/gal gas = $20.00 (back and forth) I've already spent just to take a look. Now I'm guessing another 2 more trips at least. IMHO, this is going to be a loss-leader. How much can I possibly charge these people to make this look nice ?

Thanks for all your replies and suggestions. If I end up doing the job I'll post a photo of the outcome. I'll also post some photos of the vacation I take from the profit I make on this job.

 

[Jerramundi]

Now I'm guessing another 2 more trips at least. IMHO, this is going to be a loss-leader.

Not necessarily a loss if you plan on doing more these jobs and get this one done nice, even if you land somewhat in the red.
Portfolio photos have worth too

I'll also post some photos of the vacation I take from the profit I make on this job.

NOT PROFIT!! *Gasp* The horror. If you're doing the work with your own two hands, get as much profit as you feel you deserve.

My personal opinions about profit are only negative when they are excessive for bad owners, and not the workers.
That type of boss that you call for material and he never picks up... or needs to delay paying you and yet somehow, still has money for the gas in his boat. (That was oddly specific)

Just be sure the HO doesn't get a hold of your forum handle because you might be in some shhhh then... being on here bragging about your profit margins, lol.

 

[James L]

That's it in a nutshell. There will be (2) 18-24" wide shelves, floor to ceiling. They all say it's a nice feature but when you tell them it's going to be $$$$ suddenly it's not so nice a feature. I'm not sure I want to spin my wheels trying to make this happen, not to mention the job is about 25 miles away. I've already been there once to survey. My truck gets 12 mi/gal x $5/gal gas = $20.00 (back and forth) I've already spent just to take a look. Now I'm guessing another 2 more trips at least. IMHO, this is going to be a loss-leader. How much can I possibly charge these people to make this look nice ?

Thanks for all your replies and suggestions. If I end up doing the job I'll post a photo of the outcome. I'll also post some photos of the vacation I take from the profit I make on this job.

I don't know about anyody else, but I charge the higher $55.00 per foot or $175.00 per section

6 shelves on each side? That's $2100

Then I add for switch, upgrade to dimmer, plug-in LED driver, and receptacle.

And that gets one trip included.
Extra trips = more money

I would be somewhere around $2800-3000

Maybe $4000 if more shelves

That makes a lot of people choke

 

[Jerramundi]

I would be somewhere around $2800-3000

Maybe $4000 if more shelves

That makes a lot of people choke

It's less the actual cost, and more so the fact that there are people who have 4 grand to spend on accent lighting that makes me choke, lol.
Makes me feel like Tiny Tim, lol.

Don't get me wrong, this is a skilled trade and you deserve your money's worth, but I just can't fathom having that type of disposable income.

 

[goldstar]

I don't know about anyody else, but I charge the higher $55.00 per foot or $175.00 per section

6 shelves on each side? That's $2100

Then I add for switch, upgrade to dimmer, plug-in LED driver, and receptacle.

And that gets one trip included.
Extra trips = more money

I would be somewhere around $2800-3000

Maybe $4000 if more shelves

That makes a lot of people choke

I'm with you but like Jerramundi stated I can't fathom anyone wanting to pay those kinds of $$ for accent lighting. I think the HO saw this in a magazine and tasked the home decorator with finding an electrician willing to do the install for as few $$ as possible. That's just my impression. I've already spun my wheels more than I ever expected to.

 

[Jerramundi]

I've already spun my wheels more than I ever expected to.

Well, keep on spinnin' buddy, and here's to getting some traction

 

[kwired]

I don't know about anyody else, but I charge the higher $55.00 per foot or $175.00 per section

6 shelves on each side? That's $2100

Then I add for switch, upgrade to dimmer, plug-in LED driver, and receptacle.

And that gets one trip included.
Extra trips = more money

I would be somewhere around $2800-3000

Maybe $4000 if more shelves

That makes a lot of people choke

I'm seeing couple hundred dollars in materials at the most and maybe 5-6 hours of labor. Round that up to full day if you want, you are still making like 300-350 an hour on labor.

I'm probably doing that job for maybe 1000 -1500 depending on details.

Extra trips? Did you forget something? This should be less than a one day job.

If they are willing to pay 3000, then that is what it is I guess.

 

[James L]

I'm seeing couple hundred dollars in materials at the most and maybe 5-6 hours of labor. Round that up to full day if you want, you are still making like 300-350 an hour on labor.

I'm probably doing that job for maybe 1000 -1500 depending on details.

Extra trips? Did you forget something? This should be less than a one day job.

If they are willing to pay 3000, then that is what it is I guess.

No on all accounts

Running wires before cabinets go in is one trip
Installing lights after cabinets is another trip.

I need at least an hour to get an exact layout for shelves so I can stub cables exactly where I want them. Maybe 2 hours depending on whether or not it's already designed

Demo drywall and/or run cables in basement. How many cables? 12-16 of them? At 15 minutes each, that's 3 or 4 hours.

Add switch for control and receptacle for plug-in driver, add another 1 or 1½ hour

Materials - 5mm cables would be $10 each x 12 to 16, so $120-160

The strips are $28 each. Depending on a person's soldering skills, he might want to buy a separate strip for each shelf - 28 x 12 = 336 or 28 x 16 = 448 although you might cut that in half if you find strips with 5mm connector on each end.

Otherwise you'll need to buy 12 to 16 short 5mm cables to solder onto short pieces of strip. If so, you save 250-350 on strips, but spend $80 on short cables and spend 2 hours soldering. It's really a wash, imho

The footage on the shelves is 24 - 32
Depending on the wattage per foot, it might be 48-64 watts. If 64 watts, you'll need a 100 watt driver. That's $120

Receptacle and switch materials will be $25
Need a dimmer, too. Add $35

The return trip to install The strips, driver, etc.
Strips will be 15 minutes each so add 3 to 4 hours. Managing all those cables will be a chore. I had to manage that many prefab cables cables when I put in some ikea lighting lighting, and it took almost an hour just to get them all strapped neatly.

Driver installation will be at least a ½ hour, and cleaning up everything will be at least another ½ hour.

I didn't add it all up, but just at a cursory glance it looks like $700 in material cost and at least 2 full days with 2 trips.

By the time you mark up your materials, It's $3000

 

[kwired]

No on all accounts

Running wires before cabinets go in is one trip
Installing lights after cabinets is another trip.

I need at least an hour to get an exact layout for shelves so I can stub cables exactly where I want them. Maybe 2 hours depending on whether or not it's already designed

Demo drywall and/or run cables in basement. How many cables? 12-16 of them? At 15 minutes each, that's 3 or 4 hours.

Add switch for control and receptacle for plug-in driver, add another 1 or 1½ hour

Materials - 5mm cables would be $10 each x 12 to 16, so $120-160

The strips are $28 each. Depending on a person's soldering skills, he might want to buy a separate strip for each shelf - 28 x 12 = 336 or 28 x 16 = 448 although you might cut that in half if you find strips with 5mm connector on each end.

Otherwise you'll need to buy 12 to 16 short 5mm cables to solder onto short pieces of strip. If so, you save 250-350 on strips, but spend $80 on short cables and spend 2 hours soldering. It's really a wash, imho

The footage on the shelves is 24 - 32
Depending on the wattage per foot, it might be 48-64 watts. If 64 watts, you'll need a 100 watt driver. That's $120

Receptacle and switch materials will be $25
Need a dimmer, too. Add $35

The return trip to install The strips, driver, etc.
Strips will be 15 minutes each so add 3 to 4 hours. Managing all those cables will be a chore. I had to manage that many prefab cables cables when I put in some ikea lighting lighting, and it took almost an hour just to get them all strapped neatly.

Driver installation will be at least a ½ hour, and cleaning up everything will be at least another ½ hour.

I didn't add it all up, but just at a cursory glance it looks like $700 in material cost and at least 2 full days with 2 trips.

By the time you mark up your materials, It's $3000

If you work things out with whoever is building shelves you might save a lot of steps.

I thought the OP said getting power to the location wasn't that hard of a fish job, If you do like others mentioned and solder connections to the strips you don't have multiple cables nor need to find a place to conceal all of them. Have the builder make it so shelf is removable with access to back of shelves, wire it all up before sliding the assembly into wall and have just one lead to connect afterwards. Sure there could be a little more time spent, like an initial visit to look things over and to plan it out, but could possibly only be on site for final install for just a few hours.

These would be easier than contorting yourself to install like many under cabinet lights end up being, and if designed like I said not be that hard to assemble, can be done on bench or saw horses where you have easy access to everything, the final connection and fishing things into existing walls are where the potential unknown's end up being. I'm likely coming off a circuit already supplying something nearby so not a lot of materials or effort into the main supply to this either. Certainly not running a new branch circuit to something like this with a total load of probably less than 60 VA.

If they are sliding into a void in the wall, the wall should be somewhat easy to fish because you already have it open to make that void. The builder maybe has more time into dealing with existing items than you will have, especially if you have easy access to either attic, basement, crawl space for supplying it. If you need to put a switch on other side of room, that could add some more to it I guess.

 

[James L]

If you work things out with whoever is building shelves you might save a lot of steps.

I thought the OP said getting power to the location wasn't that hard of a fish job, If you do like others mentioned and solder connections to the strips you don't have multiple cables nor need to find a place to conceal all of them. Have the builder make it so shelf is removable with access to back of shelves, wire it all up before sliding the assembly into wall and have just one lead to connect afterwards. Sure there could be a little more time spent, like an initial visit to look things over and to plan it out, but could possibly only be on site for final install for just a few hours.

These would be easier than contorting yourself to install like many under cabinet lights end up being, and if designed like I said not be that hard to assemble, can be done on bench or saw horses where you have easy access to everything, the final connection and fishing things into existing walls are where the potential unknown's end up being. I'm likely coming off a circuit already supplying something nearby so not a lot of materials or effort into the main supply to this either. Certainly not running a new branch circuit to something like this with a total load of probably less than 60 VA.

If they are sliding into a void in the wall, the wall should be somewhat easy to fish because you already have it open to make that void. The builder maybe has more time into dealing with existing items than you will have, especially if you have easy access to either attic, basement, crawl space for supplying it. If you need to put a switch on other side of room, that could add some more to it I guess.

Seems you're willing to gambke your bids on a bunch of unknown "what-ifs"

What if you can become a designer to run interference with the cabinet maker, what if they can make removable shelves, what if this and that.

All those what-ifs take time to coordinate, and many don't work out. Extra free phone calls, extra free meetings, and probably extra free time when you show up and see the guy didn't build it like you agreed.

No thanks. I'll put all those what-ifs aside and price it so it pays

 

[Jerramundi]

Certainly not running a new branch circuit to something like this with a total load of probably less than 60 VA.

Unless it's in the dining room. No tapping of those receptacles. We're watching you, lol.

 

[goldstar]

If you work things out with whoever is building shelves you might save a lot of steps.

That will be the 2nd trip of 25 miles each way

I thought the OP said getting power to the location wasn't that hard of a fish job, If you do like others mentioned and solder connections to the strips you don't have multiple cables nor need to find a place to conceal all of them. Have the builder make it so shelf is removable with access to back of shelves, wire it all up before sliding the assembly into wall and have just one lead to connect afterwards. Sure there could be a little more time spent, like an initial visit to look things over and to plan it out, but could possibly only be on site for final install for just a few hours.

This will be trip # 3. Having the cabinet maker build it that way is not my concern. Having a component or LED strip go bad somewhere down the line is a concern because it will not be serviceable once the bookcase is set into place

These would be easier than contorting yourself to install like many under cabinet lights end up being, and if designed like I said not be that hard to assemble, can be done on bench or saw horses where you have easy access to everything, the final connection and fishing things into existing walls are where the potential unknown's end up being. I'm likely coming off a circuit already supplying something nearby so not a lot of materials or effort into the main supply to this either. Certainly not running a new branch circuit to something like this with a total load of probably less than 60 VA.

Getting power to the bookcase area is the easieat part of this. The breaker panel is right below the area in an unfinished basement.

If they are sliding into a void in the wall, the wall should be somewhat easy to fish because you already have it open to make that void. The builder maybe has more time into dealing with existing items than you will have, especially if you have easy access to either attic, basement, crawl space for supplying it. If you need to put a switch on other side of room, that could add some more to it I guess.

I would plan on using a Casetta switch in the basement below and operate the lights via a PICO.

FWIW, the HO's are relatively well off but I don't think they are willing to pay the amount of $$$ I will have to charge to do this install. Granted, there are a lot of IF'S about this install but while IF is only a 2 letter word, it carries the most uncertain meaning in the entire language. When I know more I'll post it here. Again, thank you all for your suggestions.

 

[kwired]

25 mile trips to job sites is pretty normal for me. And is usually only 25 minute or so drive, where those of you that are fighting city traffic it possibly is a lot longer time to get there. I also try to stop at other places on the way there or back to take care of small tasks, look at upcoming work or potential upcoming work, etc. so that time and fuel isn't as much of a waste, whenever possible.

The cabinet builder, chances are I know them and have worked with them before. If it is one that I trust, we can work together to build something that will work for both of us. One I am most familiar with might even let me do some pre-wiring while the unit is still in his shop.

Unless it's in the dining room. No tapping of those receptacles. We're watching you, lol.

If you want to comply with NEC you can't tap dining room receptacles either, they are also part of the SABC's

 

[Jerramundi]

If you want to comply with NEC you can't tap dining room receptacles either, they are also part of the SABC's

Thank you for reiterating that. I am aware.

The Joke: Here









You: Here

Haha, I kid, I kid.

 

[Jerramundi]

If you want to comply with NEC you can't tap dining room receptacles either, they are also part of the SABC's

Is it okay to tap those receptacles if they are part of the DEFG's?

 

[kwired]

Is it okay to tap those receptacles if they are part of the DEFG's?

Only to supply HIJK's. Everything else is prohibited.