AFCI 1000 watt dimming Max

[Sierrasparky]

I was wondering about this 1000 watt max dimming per AFCI Circuit.
I have searched a bit on MH and not found much comments or proof other than some claims from UL and some Dimmer Manufactures.

A few Moderators in the past have claimed as Vooo Doooo.

How is it there is no vetting of this claim or a stickey on the subject.

I thought we were here to inform and help others in the field not keep secrets!:happysad:

 

[ELA]

Hello Sierrasparky,
How do you think is keeping secrets?

Different people approach these types of issues from different vantage points. Some here are skeptical of the "nuisance tripping" concept , whether it be GFCI's or AFCI's.
You need to prove that it is not leakage current or a true arc before you can claim nuisance tripping. That is what makes it so difficult in the case if an AFCI.

I have spent a fair amount of time testing and taking a closer look at how AFCI's operate in the past. I can tell you from an engineers view point that these devices can and do "nuisance trip".
Of course the poor guy in the field needs to make a buck and requires the quickest solution. They will most likely not have the time to play around ( like us engineers get to

I purposely created an artificial "arc signature" in order to trip an AFCI breaker and to better understand what it takes to trip them. If you are interested there is an old post here on that.

Any device that abruptly interrupts the current waveform (like a dimmer does) has potential to generate high frequency noise currents that the AFCI is looking for as part of the arc signature.
If the load is then also greater than 5 amps @60hz this creates the bare minimum requirement for a trip.

Each manufacturer's breaker may have a different method of detecting the arc and so there is some variation in how each breaker will react to certain "noisy conditions".

I have said it a few times that in my view AFCI's were forced on the public before they were ready for prime time. Accurate discrimination between a dangerous arc and normal operation for some loads is a very difficult task.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Thanks for all your work!

I claim secret because none of the more frequent posters or Moderators have commented on or have Vetted the issue of 1000watts max of dimmed load on any single AFCI breaker.

Mike Holt himself wrote a paper that I found after many hours of searching was stumbled on.

Just sayin.

 

[George Stolz]

I have no idea what you are referring to, at all. Who said you can't put more than 1000W of dimmed load on an AFCI? :blink:

 

[ptonsparky]

With all the danged cfls I have in this house I am not sure I can get 1000 watts if I turned every light on. Definately not on 1 circuit.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Do a seach for yourself there is evern a paper from Mike holt himseflt i found buried on the net
Below is a post from another website forum....

http://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/afci-questions-and-answers-mike-holt-5914/

AFCI Questions and Answers​

By Mike Holt
Would it be possible for you to give more information on how the tests were conducted?
A typical receptacle installed in a metal and nonmetallic box mounted on wood studs with drywall. The hot wire just touching the screw on the receptacle, it was move around so that it began a very small arc when the 1,500W heater load was on. In less than one hour the receptacle and the wiring in the box would melt. The AFCI opened because of an arc fault (line-to-neutral) on one case (when the peak current of a half-cycle exceeded 50A, three times in a row) and it was the Ground Fault Interrupter (GFI) that opened in the other. In both of these examples, the arc energy was as low as could be detected.
What are the characteristics of an arc on the electrical circuit? I teach an apprenticeship class and I would like to be able to explain the theory to the class.
What makes the AFCI protection any different from that in a standard circuit breaker?
AFCI?s have the electronics to open the circuit for low-level line-to-neutral faults when three to eight half-cycles exceed 50A peak (within .5 second), whereas a standard circuit breaker might not open for many hundreds of half-cycles.
Why not trip the AFCI in one or two half-cycles, instead of three to eight half-cycles?
If the AFCI tripped in one half-cycle then, then many voltage surges could cause the protection device to trip and in many cases we might not be able to turn on the loads on. A light bulb sometimes takes two
Half-cycles to burn out, so two is out.
Does a GFCI circuit breaker offer equal or greater performance than an AFCI circuit breaker, given the same conditions for which an AFCI breaker was designed?
GFCI circuit breakers are designed to protect against ground faults of 6 mA or more, short-circuits, and overloads. Dual listed AFCI/GFCI circuit breakers are designed to protect against ground faults of 6 mA or more, short circuits, overloads, and arcing line-to-neutral faults. Dual listed AFCI/GFI circuit breakers are designed to protect against ground faults in excess of 30 mA, short circuits, overloads and arcing line-to-neutral faults. A GFCI does not offer protection against arcing line-to-neutral faults.
GFCI Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupter. A device intended for the protection of personnel that functions to de-energize a circuit within an established period of time when a current to ground exceeds the values established for a Class A device. Class A ground-fault circuit interrupters trip when the current to ground has a value in the range of 4 mA to 6 mA. For further information, see UL 943, Standard for Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupters. See Article 100.
GFI Ground-Fault Protection of Equipment. A system intended to protect equipment from damaging line-to-ground fault currents by disconnecting all ungrounded conductors of the faulted circuit.
Ground-fault protection is intended to protect just the equipment itself because it is sensitive to leakage currents above 30 mA. These protection devices are intended to substantially reduce the risk of a fire by a low-level electrical arc. For further information regarding ground-fault equipment protection, refer to the UL General Information for Electrical Equipment Directory (White Book), category KCZI.
Note: Ground-fault protection devices are not the same as a ground-fault circuit interrupter used for personal protection.
Additionally both UL489/943/1699 and UL489/1053/1699 devices provide grounded-neutral protection. This is very important as a high resistance glowing contact at a receptacle terminal is equally likely to occur at the neutral as the line screw terminal. The insulation failure that occurs when the neutral wire-terminal connection overheats can lead to a neutral-to-ground fault. The fault can be external to the receptacle (glowing neutral wire touching bare ground wire or grounded outlet box) or internal to the receptacle (the result of a failure of the neutral-to-ground plastic insulation barrier as the result of the plastic melting).
While both UL943 GFCI and UL1053 GFI circuit breakers protect against a grounded-neutral condition there is a difference in how they do this. A UL943 device inserts a small voltage in the neutral conductor via a transformer. When load neutral is connected to ground this transformer generates a ground fault current which can trip the GFCI, even if there is no load current. A UL1053 GFI device requires load current to produce a ground current. The difference in grounded-neutral protection is not important for glowing contact protection as load current must be present for a glowing contact to exist. I only mention this difference for completeness.
It?s important to know that today's AFCIs include some sort of ground fault protection. One of the more common wiring faults customers encounter when installing an AFCI in a new or retrofit installation is a "shared neutral" condition (two black wires feeding circuits with a common white wire return). If the electrician does not "load test" the AFCI protected circuit before he leaves can experience a call back if a shared neutral condition exists. Two-pole AFCIs are available for this condition.
The 2002 NEC states that all branch circuits that supply 125V, 15A or 20A outlets in dwelling unit bedrooms be AFCI protected. Would this apply to smoke detectors and wall air conditioning units connected to a 125V, 15A or 20A circuit?
AFCI protection is required for all 125V, 15A and 20A outlets, and this would include the outlet for smoke detectors as well as wall air conditioners. Reports from the field indicate that AFCI breaker?s will nuisance trip when they supply motor loads.
Cutler Hammer Note: The UL1699 AFCI standard requires nuisance tripping testing with a capacitor-start motor drawing a minimum peak current of 120-A. We use an air compressor for this test that draws 145-A peak. An air conditioner should not experience a nuisance tripping problem.
Is AFCI protection required for switches located in the bedroom that controls a lighting outlet in another space?
If the switch controls utilization equipment in the bedroom, then it will be AFCI protected. However, if the switch operates lighting outlets for outdoor luminaire, closets or other loads not terminated in bedroom space then AFCI protection is not NEC required, because a switch is not considered an outlet*.
*According to Article 100, an outlet is defined as a point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply equipment that utilizes electric energy for electronic, electromechanical, chemical, heating, lighting, or similar purposes [100]. This would include a receptacle outlet, a lighting outlet, but not a switch.
Lutron Note: Phase-control dimmers may cause nuisance tripping when used with Arc-Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCIs). This nuisance tripping is dependent on the load wattage and the number of high wattage lamps on each Arc-Fault Circuit Interrupter. The use of high wattage lamps or large wattage loads will increase the chance of nuisance tripping when a dimmer turns on. This is only an issue when a dimmed circuit turns on and is not encountered during dimming or fades.
Cutler Hammer?s Comment: The UL1699 standard for 15 and 20 ampere AFCIs includes testing with 1000 watt incandescent lamp dimmers. This is appropriate for residential circuits. Staying at or below 1000 watts of total dimmed lamps per AFCI circuit should result in nuisance free performance. Additional loads can be on the circuit, just not dimmed loads.
.

 

[George Stolz]

Sierra, take a deep breath.

Old threads are automatically closed 3 months after the last post. This is not a conspiracy, it's just an attempt to give spambots less fodder and keep archeologists at bay.

I have not yet seen a reputable source provided in the links you have found to support the rumor that an AFCI we purchase today (ie not the branch-feeder AFCIs from Mike's article) will not support 1000W of dimming load. I'm not saying it's not true, I'm saying that the main reason these claims are forgotten is because a reputable source has not been presented. If you're passionate about this, you're just the man for the task.

 

[jumper]

There is a conspiracy.......darn it, I missed it.

JK, I know little about AFCI, I have not did straight resi in years, I have only installed 2 AFCI breakers.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I don't see how a closed thread keeps spam bots and internet archeaologyst at bay.

You say the sources are not credible. Well the posts refer to UL listing 1699 part XXXXX. I have not been able to get the article.
also there are claims from Lutron and Crestron that no more than 1000w dimminlg modues be used.

I will do not have the time to vet the information. Those here at MH need to do what they do and offer up their experience.

Thanks

 

[jumper]

I don't see how a closed thread keeps spam bots and internet archeaologyst at bay.

You say the sources are not credible. Well the posts refer to UL listing 1699 part XXXXX. I have not been able to get the article.
also there are claims from Lutron and Crestron that no more than 1000w dimminlg modues be used.

I will do not have the time to vet the information. Those here at MH need to do what they do and offer up their experience.

Thanks

You are not referring to me, I assume?:?

Just noticed, your beef is with George. Have at it, I got nothing for this thread.

 

[ActionDave]

No, not you or George. This is what he is talking about http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=142234

 

[George Stolz]

I don't see how a closed thread keeps spam bots and internet archeaologyst at bay.

I can field that one, easy.

Spammers have a knack for finding ancient threads talking about, say, Lutron, to promote a website selling Lutron and make it look like they're part of a real conversation. Cut off the old threads and they either need to start their own (which is too high a profile to survive) or give up the hunt.

Archeologists - well, click here. That covers that.

You say the sources are not credible. Well the posts refer to UL listing 1699 part XXXXX. I have not been able to get the article.
also there are claims from Lutron and Crestron that no more than 1000w dimminlg modues be used.

I will do not have the time to vet the information. Those here at MH need to do what they do and offer up their experience.

Thanks

You don't seem to understand what I am saying. Some random dude posting hearsay on an Internet forum is not a source. I don't know why you think I have more time or obligation to investigate this than you do. :?

 

[Sierrasparky]

I can field that one, easy.

Spammers have a knack for finding ancient threads talking about, say, Lutron, to promote a website selling Lutron and make it look like they're part of a real conversation. Cut off the old threads and they either need to start their own (which is too high a profile to survive) or give up the hunt.

Archeologists - well, click here. That covers that.



You don't seem to understand what I am saying. Some random dude posting hearsay on an Internet forum is not a source. I don't know why you think I have more time or obligation to investigate this than you do. :?

No random dude was posting anything. You George commented on one of the AFCI 1000w max threads and did ask for clarification but the thread was closed as all the others. The posters claimed IEEE and UL for the specs. I see the source of mike holt himself on a white paper Q&A... Yes We do not know if this was fixed in the newer AFCI , or the combination type. it is evern more weird if this was fixed and no one clarified this remidy in the manuf. of AFCI. I However I don't have access to the poeple that some have here that post on MH. Those are the ones we need to interact here. It would be great to get an understanding on these claims.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I have heard that dimming modules as part of a homeworks system may only have 1000 watts on their system but I don't think that has to do with AFCI's. To be honest I am not sure I ever loaded a 15 or 20 amp circuit to 1000 watts esp for dimmers. I have used 1000 watt dimmers but the loads were 800 watts or less.

It would be easy enough to test but you would need to spend the bucks for a 1500 watt dimmer and try it. How often do you have more than a 1000 watts on a residential system on one dimmer?

 

[George Stolz]

No random dude was posting anything.

In one of the threads that you linked to, that was indeed the case.

You George commented on one of the AFCI 1000w max threads and did ask for clarification but the thread was closed as all the others.

You keep asserting a cause and effect scenario that is false, has a thinly veiled insult attached, and it is beginning to get on my nerves. I'll put this response in bold, just for you.

It was not closed because of the subject material, and it was not closed on the spot. It was closed because nobody else responded for three months and was closed automatically. If you look at the previous and next threads related to that thread, you will find that they are equally closed.

The posters claimed IEEE and UL for the specs. I see the source of mike holt himself on a white paper Q&A... Yes We do not know if this was fixed in the newer AFCI , or the combination type. it is evern more weird if this was fixed and no one clarified this remidy in the manuf. of AFCI.

Personally, since I have engaged in discussion about this topic before and subsequently forgotten it, it is seems to me that the most appropriate assumption to make is that the problem either has not been fixed, or that it was so minor that it didn't make any headlines. Either are equally possible.

I However I don't have access to the poeple that some have here that post on MH. Those are the ones we need to interact here. It would be great to get an understanding on these claims.

I have never claimed to have access to this information, so I don't see why I have been singled out to investigate this query.

I'd suggest that you email the manufacturers directly and see what their responses are. Lutron and Cutler Hammer seem like good candidates. Good luck in your quest.

Edit: Here is another good place to start.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I have heard that dimming modules as part of a homeworks system may only have 1000 watts on their system but I don't think that has to do with AFCI's. To be honest I am not sure I ever loaded a 15 or 20 amp circuit to 1000 watts esp for dimmers. I have used 1000 watt dimmers but the loads were 800 watts or less.

It would be easy enough to test but you would need to spend the bucks for a 1500 watt dimmer and try it. How often do you have more than a 1000 watts on a residential system on one dimmer?

The UL spec , Lutron , Crestron claim only states 1000 watt max dimmed load. We are not speaking of one dimmer. This can be 3 switch legs and 1,300 watts.

In one of the threads that you linked to, that was indeed the case.

I have no idea when and how these threads are closed.
You keep asserting a cause and effect scenario that is false, has a thinly veiled insult attached, and it is beginning to get on my nerves. I'll put this response in bold, just for you.

I am in no way trying to insult or target anyone. I made my post and PM because no regulars where commenting and I feel this issue if real should be of concern to anyone who does reidential.


Personally, since I have engaged in discussion about this topic before and subsequently forgotten it, it is seems to me that the most appropriate assumption to make is that the problem either has not been fixed, or that it was so minor that it didn't make any headlines. Either are equally possible.


I have no idea why you would feel this way or that it is a minor issue.


I have never claimed to have access to this information, so I don't see why I have been singled out to investigate this query.

I never claimed you to have such connections , I refer that to other regulars, moderators ect.

I'd suggest that you email the manufacturers directly and see what their responses are. Lutron and Cutler Hammer seem like good candidates. Good luck in your quest.

It is my understanding the AFCI manufactures are unwilling to comment.


Edit: Here is another good place to start.

Goerge , the reason for my concern is that CA has only been inforcing the 2008 for a short time now. Ca has energy code that requires a either a High efficacy light , a sensor, or a dimmer for most every room in a dwelling. Most customers seem to go for the dimmer so this makes a greater probability of creating a dimmed load on a given circuit greater than 1,000 watts.

 

[George Stolz]

I have heard that dimming modules as part of a homeworks system may only have 1000 watts on their system but I don't think that has to do with AFCI's. To be honest I am not sure I ever loaded a 15 or 20 amp circuit to 1000 watts esp for dimmers. I have used 1000 watt dimmers but the loads were 800 watts or less.

It would be easy enough to test but you would need to spend the bucks for a 1500 watt dimmer and try it. How often do you have more than a 1000 watts on a residential system on one dimmer?

The UL spec , Lutron , Crestron claim only states 1000 watt max dimmed load. We are not speaking of one dimmer. This can be 3 switch legs and 1,300 watts.

Show us a PDF.

I am in no way trying to insult or target anyone. I made my post and PM because no regulars where commenting and I feel this issue if real should be of concern to anyone who does reidential.

Then I apologize for antagonizing you.

I have no idea why you would feel this way or that it is a minor issue.

Because I've been doing a fair amount of resi under the 2008 and have had no problems - dimmers aren't that popular (or taxed) in the projects I have done.

I have never claimed to have access to this information, so I don't see why I have been singled out to investigate this query.

I never claimed you to have such connections , I refer that to other regulars, moderators ect.

Again, I apologize; I thought that since you reached out specifically to me via PM that you thought I was holding out on you.

I'd suggest that you email the manufacturers directly and see what their responses are. Lutron and Cutler Hammer seem like good candidates. Good luck in your quest.

It is my understanding the AFCI manufactures are unwilling to comment.

It never hurts to ask. Lutron was the one that was volunteering the info, I would start there.

Goerge , the reason for my concern is that CA has only been inforcing the 2008 for a short time now. Ca has energy code that requires a either a High efficacy light , a sensor, or a dimmer for most every room in a dwelling. Most customers seem to go for the dimmer so this makes a greater probability of creating a dimmed load on a given circuit greater than 1,000 watts.

Sounds reasonable. Sounds like you have a vested interest in the research. I'll leave you to your homework.

 

[George Stolz]

Oh - and because I am such an honest guy, I will confess that I discovered that I did indeed close the thread. But I closed it three months later along with all it's neighbors, because we didn't have the automated process yet. :dunce:

 

[Sierrasparky]

I do not have a pdf that is why I want those with first hand info to chime in.
I found a link below but that is it.


http://www.ecmag.com/?fa=article&articleID=8936


Hey if I was Siemens I would not admit to such... So I really don't expect to find a PDF

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I do not have a pdf that is why I want those with first hand info to chime in.
I found a link below but that is it.


http://www.ecmag.com/?fa=article&articleID=8936


Hey if I was Siemens I would not admit to such... So I really don't expect to find a PDF

Lutron has a great tech support-- ask them if they have heard of any issues. Then call Ge or another manufacturer if this is an issue. I would think if this was an issue it would be in there info that is in the box the afci comes in. I have heard certain electronics have caused issues with afci. There was a thread the other day about Maestro dimmers and afci.