AFCI absolution

[cschmid]

I do own a scope and am with Al here it is hard to distinguish the type of wave forms..I also have a meggar and you have to be careful not to meggar someones electronics and you might think you have all the outlets covered and do not..the meggar can have a negative effect on a circuit..

I guess we need to look at all aspects but if you pigtail everything on the circuit and make the circuit clean and with no apparent defects. You connect the AFCI it holds for 60 days and you now have a problem..You go and check it out nothing new has been done (electrically or mechanically) and you looked it all over and it takes 2 new arc faults in and out to get one to hold..is it the manufactures fault with faulty equipment or is it the installers fault or the homeowners fault..the installer and home owner suffer the negative effects not the manufacturer..

Now in the above mentioned situation what actually turned out to be the problem was when the wires were pigtail the installer pushed wires into the boxes with his hammer handle and that cause the wires to have a tight bend in the wire and couple with nine splices I figure the wave form was distorted enough to send a false signal back to the breaker. we cut the bends out and shortened the pig tails so the wire had no tight bends in them and circuit has worked fine since then..

Now when we talk about tight bends I mean when the insulation was striped the wire showed stress cracks in it and was discolored..I do not mean severally discolor just the discoloring that comes from stressing copper..It is solid copper we are dealing with here. I did not take pictures sorry..I do wish I would of documented the whole thing now with photos and the like..So has anyone else run into s similar situation..I think I might try and work out a deal with the electrical department at the college.. maybe we can set up a similar situation and see if I can run the tests to verify that this is actually the culprit or if it is just coincedence..But economy is tight and funds tight as well so it is low priority to the budget..

 

[K8MHZ]

:smile:
Boy Howdy does that ever fit with this part of this thread!

Darn, you beat me to it!

I think we are all doing the best thing by sharing our knowledge and experiences on this forum.

The scenario I was given years ago is what if you are asked to meg or hi-pot a circuit that is currently functioning well as a pre-emptive measure. You do your test and no only does the conductor fail but is now unusable as the test has furthered the damage of said conductor to the point of a short. The circuit and devices connected to it were all working fine until you zapped them with your tester. Now the conductors have to be replaced and that section of the shop is down, costing the customer lots and lots of money.

Who is responsible for the costs?

 

[al hildenbrand]

Who is responsible for the costs?

Bring in the Forensic Professional Electrical Engineer to assess whether the failure point was the result of a pre-existing condition or, in fact, was created by the conditions of the pre-emptive test. Then the "guilty" party gets the bill.

Yeesh.

Going back, remembering M. D.'s opening post, all the costs of the testing and then the PE and throw in some lawyers. . . . what started out as a $180 outlet (my guess) is now many thousands. . . and the final repair has to be done yet.

This is definitely unreasonable safety at far from the least cost (a Minnesota legal phrase).

 

[macmikeman]

Most of the issues presented in this thread could be prevented from becoming a problem to the installer thru a well written proposal or work order sheet. If the potential is great, add verbage to your contract to allow for the mitigation of the problems if encountered. And point out the possibility's to the customer when you hand over the proposal. If they accept, they accept.

 

[cschmid]

AL very true..Now I was at lunch and something on this thread has bothered me and I could not put my finger on it..I have figured it out..If the homeowner decides to have a carpenter come in and remove a wall and redo two room..the home owner calls up the electrician to come over and remove and reinstall the wiring..

Now does the electrician have to bring the whole circuit up to code and install an AFCI..I say no he does not haft to bring it to AFCI standards..In fact he does not even haft to have it inspected..this is called maintenance work..You did not add a circuit to the panel, you do not need a building permit, and you do not need an inspection..All you are doing is relocating the light and outlets maybe adding one or two..You did not install any ciruits..I know of no code that requires maintenance work to be inspected..

 

[al hildenbrand]

a carpenter comes in and removes a wall and redoes two room..the home owner calls up the electrician to come over and remove and reinstall the wiring...this is called maintenance work..You did not add a circuit to the panel, you do not need a building permit, and you do not need an inspection..All you are doing is relocating the light and outlets maybe adding one or two..You did not install any ciruits..

There may be no building permit involved, but this is what the Electrical Act says:

326B.36 INSPECTION. Subdivision 1. Required inspection. Except where any political subdivision has by ordinance provided for electrical inspection similar to that herein provided, every new electrical installation in any construction, remodeling, replacement, or repair, except minor repair work as the same is defined by the board by rule, shall be inspected by the board for compliance with accepted standards of construction for safety to life and property.

3800.3500 DEFINITIONS. Subp. 10. Minor repair work. "Minor repair work" means the adjustment or repair or replacement of worn or defective parts of electrical equipment and replacement of defective receptacle outlets and manual switches for lighting control.

 

[al hildenbrand]

. . . a well written proposal or work order sheet. If the potential is great, add verbage to your contract to allow for the mitigation of the problems if encountered. . . .

Consider the OP task of adding an outlet in the hall, extended from the attic light, that might cost the customer $180.

Having the customer acknowledge, by signature, the workorder, requires that the contract verbiage be explained.

If I add boiler plate to the contract to protect myself from giving free labor and material because of unforseen premises wiring / AFCI issues, how much time am I going to "give" to selling the contract? How much is the customer going to put up with, when s/he wants a "simple" "uncomplicated" receptacle in the hall? How much is the customer going to put up with, especially when I, as the EC start to explain that there are ways this will cost more. . .it's a gamble?

We're making the sale of the work to the friend of Uncle Joe that does wiring in his spare time.

 

[Buck Parrish]

Yes, It will take home owners longer to get use to these arc breakers then it will electricians.

 

[cowboyjwc]

:grin: That's a two edged sword. "Just because it's working doesn't mean there is a problem."

Fishing is still, dark water.

I'll go along with that.:grin:

 

[cschmid]

good moring..

Al you are no fun..I did not say I did not have them inspected..I missed the 3800.3500 definition of maintenance..:roll:

But the above scenario goes on daily and most of the time the carpenter does the work..

So the question still remains you are only modifing an exsisting circuit not replacing it do you need to bring it to AFCI standards..

 

[al hildenbrand]

Al you are no fun

But the above scenario goes on daily and most of the time the carpenter does the work..

Too true. I get to work on enough of it that I have come to identify it as a source of job security.

you are only modifying an existing circuit not replacing it do you need to bring it to AFCI standards.

There are two answers, that I am aware of.

One answer is, if the "outlet" is in a new location it wasn't in before, then it is a new outlet, and its circuit, has to meet 210.12(B). If the wall is stripped open and later re-covered, yet the outlet box is left at its original location, then there is not a new outlet. If one takes the opportunity to tag another new receptacle outlet off of the existing wiring that is being re-routed away from the removed wall, then the new receptacle outlet (and the branch circuit) definitely has to comply with 210.12(B).

The other answer is, it depends upon what the electrical inspector for that specific location will agree to. This can result in some surprising allowances that are more lenient than the "first answer, above", most of the time, and other times, more headaches.

 

[RB1]

M.D.,

As the lady was throwing you out of her house did you explain to her that there was a possibility that one of her grounded conductors may have become grounded?

 

[M. D.]

M.D.,

As the lady was throwing you out of her house did you explain to her that there was a possibility that one of her grounded conductors may have become grounded?

She did not throw me out ,..some of the conversation in my posts was intended for dramatic effect..

She could not follow all the whys' and wherefores' involving this issues' intricacies and asked me to stop trying to make it make sense...

I did tell that it was most likely that a grounding conductor was inadvertently in contact with the grounded conductor,... Then she slapped her head and said

"well,.. why didn't you say so ,.. of coarse we wouldn't want the grounding and the grounded conductors to be contacting each other ,.. take your time and while you're at it check the rest of the house whatever the cost..... Can I make you a cup of coffee???" ( this is what I meant by dramatic effect).


My point is,... when a rule, like the speed limit, is too restictive it becomes ineffectual I think the expansion crossed the practicality line in that there is no relief ,.. it says what it says so if it costs $800.00 ..so be it,.. and perhaps there should not be relief. But I know there are a lot of electricians,
inspectors and states that are getting creative with this AFCI issue

In my opinion this is a bit of bad code and as such it works,.. slightly perhaps ,.. to undermine the legitimacy of the NEC as a whole.

 

[RB1]

M.D.,

Your dramatic effect was hilarious. I was just kidding about her throwing you out. That was my dramatic effect.

 

[K8MHZ]

M.D.,

Your dramatic effect was hilarious. I was just kidding about her throwing you out. That was my dramatic effect.

And I thank you both!

Girls aren't the only ones that gotta have fun!

 

[cschmid]

My point is,... when a rule, like the speed limit, is too restictive it becomes ineffectual I think the expansion crossed the practicality line in that there is no relief ,.. it says what it says so if it costs $800.00 ..so be it,.. and perhaps there should not be relief. But I know there are a lot of electricians,
inspectors and states that are getting creative with this AFCI issue

In my opinion this is a bit of bad code and as such it works,.. slightly perhaps ,.. to undermine the legitimacy of the NEC as a whole.[/QUOTE]

Now this is the debate because the rule does violate the laws in our state and the debate is on..I don't know if I can make the 4/25/08 meeting but am going to check on Monday about getting my opinion in..

I do wish that the manufactures would of put on an advertising campaign promoting the benefits..instead they just put the stuff on-line and leave it at that..I actually can say that the younger generation is wire but I know the older are not and don't care..My boss has none of the high tech toys and does not want them..he barely runs a computer. Yet he understands the wanting desire of the high tech generation to a degree..

So if the manufacturers are not going to promote the benefits of the AFCI and explain the pit falls..That basically means we as electricians have been feed to the lions..oh and by the way no life jacket you are on your own with this with the public..thanks for the new Mercedes boys and good luck with your dilemma..

Oh and by the way when the home owner remodels the inside of their house two rooms at a time don't exspect to get a call if you have to make the circuit and AFCI..I hear the carpenters say thanks for the extra cash..

 

[Arrowinspector]

I was doing a final inspection on new construction and the bedroom afci was tripped in the panel box. The electrician discovered he stapled the NM cable to tight just above the panel box. He corrected his mistake and the afci worked fine.

Don't kink the hose!

I do own a scope and am with Al here it is hard to distinguish the type of wave forms..I also have a meggar and you have to be careful not to meggar someones electronics and you might think you have all the outlets covered and do not..the meggar can have a negative effect on a circuit..

I guess we need to look at all aspects but if you pigtail everything on the circuit and make the circuit clean and with no apparent defects. You connect the AFCI it holds for 60 days and you now have a problem..You go and check it out nothing new has been done (electrically or mechanically) and you looked it all over and it takes 2 new arc faults in and out to get one to hold..is it the manufactures fault with faulty equipment or is it the installers fault or the homeowners fault..the installer and home owner suffer the negative effects not the manufacturer..

Now in the above mentioned situation what actually turned out to be the problem was when the wires were pigtail the installer pushed wires into the boxes with his hammer handle and that cause the wires to have a tight bend in the wire and couple with nine splices I figure the wave form was distorted enough to send a false signal back to the breaker. we cut the bends out and shortened the pig tails so the wire had no tight bends in them and circuit has worked fine since then..

Now when we talk about tight bends I mean when the insulation was striped the wire showed stress cracks in it and was discolored..I do not mean severally discolor just the discoloring that comes from stressing copper..It is solid copper we are dealing with here. I did not take pictures sorry..I do wish I would of documented the whole thing now with photos and the like..So has anyone else run into s similar situation..I think I might try and work out a deal with the electrical department at the college.. maybe we can set up a similar situation and see if I can run the tests to verify that this is actually the culprit or if it is just coincedence..But economy is tight and funds tight as well so it is low priority to the budget..

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I was doing a final inspection on new construction and the bedroom afci was tripped in the panel box. The electrician discovered he stapled the NM cable to tight just above the panel box. He corrected his mistake and the afci worked fine.

How was it fixed?