AFCI absolution

[M. D.]

Tom , one the main problems is that it can cost a lot of money to find the reason for the tripped breaker ,.. not that it can't be found or shouldn't be found.. It becomes almost a comedy routine when trying to explain to an average person the reason why it ,.."is required here and not there" and ,."it is because we added an outlet" and "we could run a line all the "way back to the panel" and "well we could fish for a circuit that will support an AFCI" (not sure that's a great idea) and well let's see,.. well I could just put a small sub panel right over here and you can cover it with a picture " and "I can troubleshoot this circuit until I find the problem(s)."

It all can be done and perhaps should be ,.. but it all costs money,.. and I don't know about the world you live in , but the folks I work for are watching the pennies with a bit more attention these days ...

I think the expansion was a big flipping mistake and that the line between safety and product promotion is getting harder and harder to see.

 

[ptonsparky]

I have been thinking about possible problems with AFCI's quite a bit.

One thing that may help a little in the future is to install the AFCI before adding anything to the circuit. If it trips then see if the fix is simple and if not look for another circuit. This may take a little longer but you will know what you are dealing with before you start the additional work. If you need to leave things as they are then you haven't added anything. ( the customer can always opt out of paying for additional work, they do have a choice).

I now where there is a slight problem at one house and I even know where the problem is located. It's in a junction box for a very large and heavy chandelier in a foyer about 25 ft up. This is just not the circuit you want to add a receptacle to requiring an AFCI.

Ok, so now what do you tell that customer about the 6 circuits that you discovered that may have a problem, before you found one good one? Ignore them, collect the check and go home?

Might be better off just running a whole new circuit to begin with.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

The best answer so far was to try the afci breaker first.Then we have no major time waisted.Gives customer the option of saying forget it ,i dont need it that bad.With romex we never know when a nail went thru the neutral and hit either the ground or wood.
Was this house the one Lucy bought ?

 

[M. D.]

The best answer so far was to try the afci breaker first.Then we have no major time waisted.Gives customer the option of saying forget it ,i dont need it that bad.With romex we never know when a nail went thru the neutral and hit either the ground or wood.
Was this house the one Lucy bought ?

So let me get this straight ,.. put in the afci breaker on the circuit intended to be added to ,..if it trips try another,..it that trips too try another?

"Oh no mam those circuits are safe ,.. uhh they just don't support the new technology ." To install a circuit that does,.. or to make the corrections needed will cost you $XXX.XX"

Do you think they will go without ?? they will either do it themselves or find another electrician (like me I guess ) who will do it without the new technology, or they will string extension cords.

I must say that it bothers me quite a bit to have committed this violation. I do not take it lightly ,..


Speaking of violation ,...would it be a violation to remove the AFCI after it was installed in the fishing for a circuit example???

 

[growler]

Ok, so now what do you tell that customer about the 6 circuits that you discovered that may have a problem, before you found one good one? Ignore them, collect the check and go home?

Might be better off just running a whole new circuit to begin with.

Tom, it's only a suggestion. It will not solve all the problems of dealing with AFCI's or bad wiring.

It would let you know that the problem is pre-existing and does not have anything to do wih the wiring that was added. It would also help explain to the customer why you may be better off running a new circuit if possible. The reason I make this suggestion is that any problems found after you have been working in the house the customer is going to try to blame on the electricain. If you find the problem first then it's a little harder to blame the service tech.

Install the AFCI breaker first and tell the customer that it's a Test of the existing wiring. This is pretty much true. The breaker is actually performing test that could be done with other test equipment if requested.

I think it's worth a try to see if the circuit will hold first. Very little time invested ( 10 minutes to install breaker ).

If you find a problem then you do what is normally done and inform the customer ( document) and it's in their ball park now. If they wish to pay for you to find the problem that's great, if the don't then there is no way to force them to spend the money.

 

[cschmid]

You are only fooling your self if you think that some of them AFCI have not disappeared and never to be heard from again..I can see a DIY removing the circuit in a heartbeat..Once inspect nolonger needed bye bye trouble maker..that is what this regulation has created..

Now we are saying that there is no AFCI CB tester that works..Mike holts promotes one and this is the link to it..anyone with any experience with it and is it true it works..

http://www.arcfaulttester.com/pdf/AS1000.pdf

thanks

 

[growler]

So let me get this straight ,.. put in the afci breaker on the circuit intended to be added to ,..if it trips try another,..it that trips too try another?

"Oh no mam those circuits are safe ,.. uhh they just don't support the new technology ." To install a circuit that does,.. or to make the corrections needed will cost you $XXX.XX"

No, You do not tell the homeowner that those circuits are safe. Those circuits are not safe. You document the problem the same way you would any other problems noticed during a service call and let the homeowner decide to either repair or ignore.

You let the homeowner know that there is a problem and that with older technology it just didn't show up. This is where Marc the megger man comes in. There was never a requirment to megg circuits before but to use the AFCI's you may have to do just that.

I may end up buying a Hi-pot tester, I don't know yet. If I find enough problems to make it worth the expense I will.

 

[al hildenbrand]

The Siemens combo afci has two LEDs that indicate the type of arc fault.

Yes, Tom, there is a small amount of information divulged in the two LEDs on the Siemens combo AFCI. According to the installation instructions for the combo AFCI, there are only four (4) bits of information, only two of which are about the "type of arc fault". Unfortunately, the type of arc is only an arc involving ground, or not involving ground. There is no real differentiation as to type of arc. Is the arc series or parallel? Is the trip the result of a no-arc neutral-EGC contact or no-arc lack of neutral integrity, or is there actually an arc present? If there is an arc "to ground", is it to the neutral, or is it to the EGC? Is the arc strength strong or weak, and, better yet, what is the current, in an analog sense, of the arc?

The Siemens AFCI products feature trip indicators. If a yellow flag is visible in the window after the trip event, this indicates that the trip was caused by an arc fault or fault to ground. If no yellow flag is visible, the trip was caused by either an overload or short-circuit load-current event.

The Siemens Combo AFCI Installation Instructions (available as a PDF file here offer the following detail. The two LEDs are called out on a diagram as "J" (closest to the bus end) and "M" (closest to the handle).

AFCI will need to be replaced if the following conditions are displayed by the yellow LEDs

• LED (J): Blinking
• LED(M): Blinking

LED Indication Guide (after recent trip has occurred)
Turn AFCI to ?ON? position
Observe LED indications and compare to chart below:

.....LED INDICATOR............................LAST KNOWN TRIP CONDITION
....LED (J).....LED (M)
......OFF.........OFF....................................OVERCURRENT
.......ON..........OFF....................................ARC FAULT
.......ON...........ON..............................ARC FAULT TO GROUND

LED indications will appear for 5 seconds each time the AFCI is turned ?ON?

Display will appear each time the AFCI is reset up to 30 days after last trip.

The last known trip condition can be cleared by the following process:
1. Turn the AFCI to the ?OFF? position.
2. Press and hold the PTT button.
3. Turn the AFCI to the ?ON? position.
4. Release the PTT button within 3 seconds.

 

[ELA]

I
I figure there is a connection between the grounded conductors of two different circuits,.. with no load no trip turn on one lamp and,........ "trip"

I feel for you guys having to work with these newly required combination devices. I have yet to be exposed to one since I work mainly industrial.

I liked the suggestion to install the GFCI up front as a test. Others didn't seem to think this was wise.

How about, before any new install, load the circuit in question fairly heavily.
Then use a clamp on current probe that is sensitive to 30ma or less. Clamp over both the hot and neutral leaving the breaker in question. If you get a "difference "current of more than 10-15 ma tell the customer it may be a problem in advance of doing the work?

This is of course assuming it is a neutral-gnd partial short.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

So let me get this straight ,.. put in the afci breaker on the circuit intended to be added to ,..if it trips try another,..it that trips too try another?

"Oh no mam those circuits are safe ,.. uhh they just don't support the new technology ." To install a circuit that does,.. or to make the corrections needed will cost you $XXX.XX"

Do you think they will go without ?? they will either do it themselves or find another electrician (like me I guess ) who will do it without the new technology, or they will string extension cords.

I must say that it bothers me quite a bit to have committed this violation. I do not take it lightly ,..


Speaking of violation ,...would it be a violation to remove the AFCI after it was installed in the fishing for a circuit example???

All i am saying is if you did this first you would not been where you ended up.Its not something i would like being forced to do.You know if they have a fire for any reason they will point fingers.Will be hard to get customer to pay to fix what they dont think is broke.It could take hours and end up as a bad wire someplace between boxes from a staple,drywall screw or nail.Had you given the owner the choice to fix that problem first you would not have Lucy calling the arck fault cops on you.We all need to change the ways we use to do remodels.Only thing i can say is i am glad i got out of residential.Wonder how long it be before we use afci in commercial.As you know by now ,friends and money dont work good together.

 

[K8MHZ]

I may end up buying a Hi-pot tester, I don't know yet. If I find enough problems to make it worth the expense I will.

Be advised that some cable manufacturers are now voiding their warranty is hi-pot testing is used on their products. The tests they recommend are non destructive VLF testing.

If a megger is used on older wiring it should not be set above the maximum rating of the cable's insulation. Most 120v wiring is rated at 600 volts. Even so, meggers are not considered to be non destructive and can cause a problem to become worse than when you started.

I am considering buying an oscilloscope to look at the wave form of a circuit that trips an AFCI. A totally resistive circuit would show a pure sine wave. One that trips an AFCI would show something other than a pure sine wave. At least this way you have a means to show the customer that there is a problem by comparing the image on the scope of the circuit that trips the AFCI with one that won't. Scopes aren't cheap but are very useful and may keep the customer from thinking you are making up a story to thin their pocketbook. After a few such demonstrations I think the value of the scope would prove itself. It would also show if the AFCI is bad or not with no guesswork. Having a known good AFCI on board to test the circuit with is also a good idea. One could be installed in a small panel with test leads coming in and out of the (portable) panel.

Times and technology are changing and those of us that learn to adapt will succeed and those that refuse or are unable to adapt will fail. This is kind of like Darwinism on a technical level.

 

[al hildenbrand]

. . . some cable manufacturers . . . The tests they recommend are non destructive VLF testing.

Is VLF "very low frequency"?
"variable 'lectrical figures"?
"vertex linger force"?
"very long finger"?
"vibrating lunge factor"?

A totally resistive circuit would show a pure sine wave. One that trips an AFCI would show something other than a pure sine wave.

A totally resistive load circuit with a pure sine waveform on the current and voltage will still trip an AFCI if the neutral is cross connected to another circuit, or the neutral is in contact with the EGC.

 

[al hildenbrand]

It would also show if the AFCI is bad or not with no guesswork.

I love the Oscilloscope's ability to show the waveform. The problem, to me, is figuring out the difference between the waveform of a branch circuit with some compact fluorescent electronic ballast lamps, a computer and printer switching power supply, vacuum cleaner universal motor and a couple solid state incandescent dimmers; and the waveform of the same circuit with the same loads running and with a sputtering series arc or a parallel arc added.

Both waveforms are going to be complex.

Give the last five pages of this Siemens AFCI white paper a read to get an indication of the principles of arc discrimination that is theoretically happening in a combo AFCI.

 

[K8MHZ]

Is VLF "very low frequency"?
"variable 'lectrical figures"?
"vertex linger force"?
"very long finger"?
"vibrating lunge factor"?A totally resistive load circuit with a pure sine waveform on the current and voltage will still trip an AFCI if the neutral is cross connected to another circuit, or the neutral is in contact with the EGC.

VLF is 'Very Low Frequency' and is used to test the capacitance on shielded cable without compromising it's integrity. Another accepted form of non destructive testing is ultrasonic. X-ray and tomography are also used.

In 2000 the EC I worked for did Hi-Pot testing of cables in the power plants. I was at another plant last week and was informed that the EC no longer tests the cables as the lab techs at the plant now do it. VLF testers are very expensive and as such most EC's wont have them. I was informed in 2000 that there were to be some changes made in test procedures and it seems that they have now been implemented. As such, it's prudent to consult the manufacturer of any conductor as to which form of testing is recommended and which form will void any warranty conditions.

I know that may be impossible to do in older installations, but it is wise to know that Hi-Potting my damage conductors and to use such a test with that realization.

 

[growler]

I know that may be impossible to do in older installations, but it is wise to know that Hi-Potting my damage conductors and to use such a test with that realization.

They still do the Hi-Pot test on new mobile homes. I was thinking of a quick way to test a whole house, new construction type.

From what I have read the problem with the Hi-Pot test is for older cables ( 5 years and more ).

I haven't used this method yet, just trying to come up with ideas for the future. Who knows a better mouse trap may be in the design stage at this moment.

As usual I will burn each bridge as I come to it.

 

[al hildenbrand]

. . . meggers are not considered to be non destructive and can cause a problem to become worse than when you started.

I think you raise an excellent concern.

Marc, (mdshunk), if you see this, what do you think? Oh, and Marc, isn't your location the Munster's old place? :smile:

 

[al hildenbrand]

As usual I will burn each bridge as I come to it.

:smile:
Boy Howdy does that ever fit with this part of this thread!

 

[cschmid]

I have a whole bunch of info from every manufacturer and found they even share the same info. can find nothing on the engineering portion of the AFCI and only some sine wave sheets indicating the trip cycles..I have white papers, manufacturer instructions and trouble shooting guides, manufacturer spec sheets..I want more technical data can anyone hook a brother up with some tech data on AFCI's..
I even found that cuttler hammer has a AFCI tester the only one a breaker manufacturer designed and built.

January 2008
CA08101001E For more information visit: www.eaton.com
Load centers & Circuit Breakers 3-27

Type CH Load centers & Circuit Breakers & Accessories
Circuit Analyzer

Product Description
Eaton’s Cutler-Hammer Circuit Analyzer provides accurate testing of AFCI
and GFCI devices while also testing for faulty wiring conditions.
There are other testing devices on the market but this will be the only one
available from an AFCI manufacturer. Eaton has more than 100 years of electrical control and power distribution experience, and a thorough understanding of what arc faults are all about. This experience with AFCI
breakers led to developing a patented feature of the analyzer that will save
contractors time and aggravation. It allows contractors to verify whether
they have a grounded neutral simply by depressing the red Neutral Isolation
test button. In this way, they will be able to determine whether they have a
grounded neutral or have other neutrals connected before they leave the
job site. Additionally, the Circuit Analyzer has a button that tests AFCI and
two that test GFCI devices (both 40 mA and 8 mA). Application Description
The Circuit Analyzer serves as a handy troubleshooting tool for contractors
and electrical inspectors. It’s a circuit analyzer that provides accurate testing
of AFCI and GFCI devices while also testing for faulty wiring conditions.

Features, Functions and Benefits
■ All-in-one tester for ground fault, arc fault and faulty wiring conditions.
■ Neutral Isolation Test Button is a patented feature that allows the Contractor to determine whether they have a grounded neutral or have
other neutrals connected before leaving the job.
■ Additional test button for AFCI and two that test GFCI devices (40 mA
and 8 mA).
■ Only product available from an AFCI manufacturer.
■ Three standard accessories enhance the usefulness of the Circuit
Analyzer:
❑ An alligator clip attachment to test hardwired circuits, such as smoke detectors, that lack a receptacle. The clip simply is attached to the smoke alarm’s terminals
❑ An adapter (3-prong to 2-prong) for testing in older homes that lack 3-prong receptacles
❑ Light socket adapter for AFCI testing when no receptacle is available. Examples are ceiling fans that contain sockets and recessed lighting
❑ Additionally, the Circuit Analyzer comes with a black carrying case Technical Data and Specifications
How it Works
1. Plug the tester (or one of the accessories) into the receptacle, light fixture or hardwired terminals to be tested.
2. Check the wiring LEDs on the Circuit Analyzer to determine if the circuit is wired correctly.
3. If the circuit is wired correctly, then proceed to test for Neutral Isolation, Arc Fault or Ground Fault conditions, depending on the breaker or receptacle type that is on the circuit.
4. To perform these tests, press the corresponding button on the Circuit
Analyzer and review the results.

Man my brain is fried from the research and all for what..I have been doing research and the problem with AFCI is actually DYI'ers because the problem is education of proper wiring methods..the shared neutral issue is huge and so is wire compaction in boxes..Now as for the lack of info and proprietary is also an issue because we are kept in the dark..So I still say that the cost of the AFCI system and the inability for us to prove without a reasonable doubt the accuracy of the AFCI to the customer the costs still out way the benefits..I think in 2 or 3 years it will be different but in the mean time we as electricians are going to suffer consumer dissatisfaction with the product and we are going to be the whipping post..

 

[cowboyjwc]

We keep talking about something working fine until we hook up the AFCI the suddenly, poof, problems, must be the breaker.

Got a call one day, a few outlets and some lights in a house went out. House is about 10 years old, no work done, just stopped working. Check, check, check. Pull outlet that's not really related to the problem, something doesn't look right. Finally cut a hole under the stairs, nail sticking in the romex. 10 years worked fine, nail acting as a conductor, since when I pulled it out the black wire was cut in half. Up and down the stairs till it finally worked loose.

I'm guessing that an AFCI might have found that problem right off the bat, but I guess as long as it was working, there's no sense looking for the nail through the wire.

I know that guys disagree with me, but just because it's working doesn't mean there's not a problem.

 

[al hildenbrand]

:grin:

I know that guys disagree with me, but just because it's working doesn't mean there's not a problem.

That's a two edged sword. "Just because it's working doesn't mean there is a problem."

Fishing is still, dark water.