AFCI and Call Backs

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stud696981

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In regards to the AFCI, I realize there have been a lot off issues with nuisance tripping. I was just curious on how other contractors handle the following. A new house is built and properly wired with the AFCI?s. After the new home owner moves in you get a call about random tripping and the job is under warranty. You send a crew to their house who checks out their system and finds out the nuisance tripping is a result of their equipment, not a defective breaker or workmanship. Do you charge them for the service call or do you just eat the loss? I?m just curious since my business doesn?t normally do new homes, we tend to do more service calls, service change overs and small remodels. I was thinking about this because I can imagine a contractor who does a whole new subdivision getting at least a half dozen call backs on these.
 
Re: AFCI and Call Backs

I was able to obtain a letter from the manufacturer of the type AFCI I use that explains common problems and soultions when using equipment on afci circuits. I provide a copy of this letter to the homeowner along with the other literature and documentation of other equipment like smoke alarms and appliances.

I tend to not chrage for service calls on warranty work even if the problem is on the home owner's side. It's just good business. Just make sure to keep up good communication with your customer when any device or equipment you install may lead to problems or confusion. Afci's, gfci's, and switched receptacles are all common points of interest homeowners should have some basic education on. This will help to avoid making service calls.
 
Re: AFCI and Call Backs

Bryan, I do the same thing. I have printed out a sheet for new home owners. It gives them info. on GFCI's, AFCI's, switched outlets, 3 or4 prong appliances, phone lines, smoke detectors, and circuit breakers. It explains all of the most frequently asked questions. I haven't had a "nuisance-call" since I started handing them out!
It saves time, money, and educates the customer.

:cool:

Dave
 
Re: AFCI and Call Backs

At best i would eat one call with one man.After that they need to pay.Goodwill can only go so far.Printing a sheet to help them understand is a great idea.Keep in mind that your giving away a mans time.That money is better spent in x mas bonus.Warn them on phone that if it's there equipment there is a charge.If your looking for service work from the customer one free call max.
 
Re: AFCI and Call Backs

If one of you have a sheet you use for this purpose, would you please share it. I would like to consider this route. Thank you for your time in providing this information.
ACE

Edited to remove the e-mail address. Please use the PM system to make contact and then exchange e-mail addresses. Charlie

[ January 27, 2005, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: charlie ]
 
Re: AFCI and Call Backs

Most of my calls were about GFCI outlets, smoke alarms and Range/Dryer Cords so I didn't go into much detail about the AFCI's because I
have never had one single call about them! I work for myself, and don't have any employees so I'm sure the larger companies run into more situations then I do. I only wire about 15 houses a year. Anyway it's in my own words (Home owner friendly!) and it's hardly official but it answers most of their questions, at least the ones I get.


Dave


To: New Home Owner

The following information is meant to answer some of the most frequently asked questions New Home Owners have about their electrical systems.

GFCI Outlets

GFCI or "Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters" are used to add protection from shock anywhere water is present. You will find GFCI outlets in the
following areas: Kitchen, Bath rooms, Garage, Outdoor Outlets, Jacuzzies, and Hot Tubs.
The GFCI outlets have TEST & RESET buttons on them and will need to be "Reset" from time to time. The manufacturer suggests you Test them monthly to ensure they are working correctly. One GFCI outlet can also protect additional outlets on the same circuit so if the GFCI outlet is "Tripped" the other outlets on that circuit will also be De-Energized until it is Reset.
The Refrigerator Outlet in your house is not GFCI protected, Refrigerators should not be plugged into a GFCI protected circuit.

ARC-FAULT Circuit Breakers

Bedroom circuits including the smoke detectors, are required to have Arc-Fault Circuit Breakers. They also have a TEST and RESET button on them and should be tested monthly to ensure they are working correctly. Like GFCI Outlets, they need to be "Reset" after a fault is cleared.

Smoke Alarms

Your house is equipped with AC/DC Smoke detectors, meaning they are powered by electric (AC) and also have a 9V (DC) battery back-up. The Smoke Detectors have what is called an "Interconnect" system, which means if
one detector sounds, ALL of the detectors will sound. It is recommended you change the 9V batteries every 6 months to ensure they are charged enough to work correctly. If a smoke detector has a "Dead" Battery it will Notify you by sounding a small "Chirp" about once a minute. The battery should be replaced with a new one immediately. The smoke detectors also have a TEST button which should be used to ensure they are working correctly.


Range & Dryer Outlets

In 1996 the NEC changed it's requirements for Range and Dryer Outlets from the "old" 3-wire system to the new 4-wire system. You will find 4-wire outlets in your new home. If you are using "Old" appliances you will need to change the cord on your appliance to match the new outlet. The 4-wire cords are available at most hardware stores. Do Not change the outlets!

Circuit Breakers

The circuit breakers are located in your electric panel, usually in the Garage or Outside by the FPL Meter. If a circuit breaker "trips" it can be reset in 2 simple steps. You must push the breaker completely "OFF" first, then you can push it back to the "ON" position and it will be reset. If a breaker will not reset leave it Off and call for service.

Switched Outlets

Some houses have outlets that are controlled by a switch. They are designed to have a lamp plugged into them, so when you turn on the switch the lamp turns on. If you find an outlet that does not work, check to see if the switch controls it!

Phones

The phone system in your house has 4 pairs of wires, meaning you can have up to 4 different phone numbers using the existing wiring.


If you ever have any Electrical problems or questions please call xxx-xxxx for service. A Power "Outage" can be reported to FPL at 1-800-468-8243.
 
Re: AFCI and Call Backs

I was not aware that Smokes are required to be on arc fault. Is this just local?
Click to expand...
All dwelling unit bedroom outlets on 120 volt 15 or 20 amp branch circuits must have AFCI protection. The bedroom smoke detector, if 120 volts, is installed at an outlet.
Don
 
Re: AFCI and Call Backs

Now im confused. I thought that bedroom receptacles and lights are to be identified as arc fault protected. So your saying that the smoke detectors must be protected because it is in the bedroom and hence an outlet. I interconnect all of my smokes and they have never been on the same circuit as the arcfaults. Its never been questioned. This is why I ask, can you direct me where to get a clairification. Our inspectors have never said a word, nor have I known about this. Thanks for help Chief.

[ January 27, 2005, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: aelectricalman ]
 
Re: AFCI and Call Backs

Understand outlet part, need to read AFCI part. Thanks.

[ January 27, 2005, 10:19 PM: Message edited by: aelectricalman ]
 
Re: AFCI and Call Backs

Dave that is a outstanding idea I intend to distribute copies to our builders to give to their home buyers at their final walk through.Last year our final totals came in
2,357 homes wired and finaled out.The call back rate for simple things like what dave has here is mind boggling.The builders explain alot of whats in it but when a first time home buyer is doing their walk they have more on their minds than gfci`s like that`s where i`ll put the 50 in.
plasma tv,or those curtains will look great there.They get so euphoric that if told anything by the time they walk out the door to the closing
they usually don`t remeber a word.GREAT IDEA THANKS AGAIN.....ALLEN
 
Re: AFCI and Call Backs

O ic whats going on. I've always not included smokes in the mix with AFCI's in bedrooms. The inspectors have never said anything, so i've just kept doing it. I guess I better start huh. The inspectors don't check the smokes because that falls on the building inspector. That is why it never gets checked. HUM.
 
Re: AFCI and Call Backs

A word of caution, Ace: I'm not saying it's right, all I am saying is it happens, and we need to bear it in mind.

Your electrical inspector may be very aware of how you pull your smokes. He may prefer them to be off the Arc-Fault, due to the nuisance tripping and whatnot. One thing I've heard is, "If the arc fault trips because the bedroom circuit is on fire..."

I assume you install smokes with battery back-up, so these arguments aren't valid. If the inspector red-tags you for suddenly wiring it to code ( :) ) have your ducks in a row to explain why and why it's as safe. :D

Been down that road. :roll:
 
Re: AFCI and Call Backs

Thanks for that very helpful insight George. I will take that into consideration.

Regardless of the fact, if the smokes are all tied to one circuit (so they can be linked) it will have to enter the bedroom. Therefore, even if they are on seperate circuits than the bedroom, it will still need AFCI protection. What you mentioned makes sense. If the breaker trips due to arcing conditions, the smokes will not be gauranteed to activate. Three years down the road when "little old Betty" forgets to change her batteries, we've got a problem! This is actually serious, and in my opinion warrants investigation. Does anyone else agree? Is there anyone else out there who's Inspectors let these things slide? Can someone provide a counter argument?
 
Re: AFCI and Call Backs

Betty'd have to let the battery in her hearing aid go, too. Seems like all smokes have low/no battery chirp. :)

The event I referred to began with the AFCI's introduction when 2002 was adopted. A healthy amount of distrust went through different ranks of inspectors in various jurisdictions, resulting in a short period of differing requirements from AHJ to AHJ. In Cheyenne, I heard that they went through AFCI-puberty in about 3 weeks. :D

In the end, code prevailed. Smokes go on the AFCI. At least around here.

Edit: Since the nuisance tripping has settled a bit (at least for us), the "safer" AFCI circuit is as reliable a source of power in a fire as any other "less protected" circuit, IMO. ;)

[ January 28, 2005, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 
Re: AFCI and Call Backs

Our inspectors require that smokes be listed in the panels legend.They can be dedicated or tapped off a bedroom circuit.At the cost of AFCI breakers we tap off the master bedroom since if that breaker trips the H/O will know right away.Our biggest problem we have with smoke detector service calls is confusing maybe one of you guys has had the same problem .We as we speak have around 4 homes in totally different areas that have the same problem .Smoke detectors going off at different times of the day .We have changed them out,checked connections from panel through splices.Voltage is fine.One particular home has had this problem for 8 months.We have changed phases that the breaker is on,checked for hard starting a/c`s,POCO has checked their end :confused: We have even traced the wiring to make sure there are no pressure shorts in the attic .This home shares a transformer with 4 other homes and they have never had this problem.I am at a total loss for ideas.I am so done with this I am considering sending a service crew in to rewire the circuit.Any ideas ?
 
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