mbrooke
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- United States
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- Technician
I know right? :lol:
AFCI and GFCI Kitchens
- Thread starter Sam Nation
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I know right? :lol:
mbrooke
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- United States
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- Technician
I am not telling you what position to take. I had a genuine question which you refused to answer.
I call it bailing out because you continue to dance around a simple question. In the time it took you to make this several dozen word response you could have explained how an AFCI helps mitigate risk in old BX circuits without a bonding strip. I feel this is a major concern regarding older homes and want to know if AFCIs protect against this real world hazard.
From where or who? Yes I have repeated some facts/opionions because this is a common hot button conversation on Mike Holt.
The rest of the world has been using AFCI technology to mitigate arc faults for about 40+ years with devices that have lower failure rates (electro-mechanical) yet continue to have comparable fire rates. Second I am still puzzled how 30,000 home fires were determined to all stem from arcing.
To me this is profound because the real world evidence (or lack there of) does not fit or support the claims.
Normally this would be a none issue, but considering the fact AFCIs can add thousands to a new home or some panel upgrades has many asking valid questions.
We are equal, and that is a good thing. I can not sell you on my views either, so at minimum we have checks and balances.
Here, but I can also say not so:
https://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsar...I_-_Why_I_Have_a_Problem_With_It~20020801.htm
In any case its trivial, this is a controversial hot button subject so I would imagine Mike Holt would not take an official position, but hey I am probably wrong here.
I am sure they support it. You will find many who say the same for similar reasons.
Science is not a delusional conspiracy. I have no proof of who or why they came about so you are correct this is nothing more then pure speculation. However I do have equations, theory and evidence that says otherwise in regards to fire mitigation.
The real delusion here in my opinion is discarding hard science for unsubstantiated claims made by superiors. This is the only thing with continuity I have witnessed thus far.
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mbrooke
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- United States
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I dont think he has been deluded.
https://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsar...I_-_Why_I_Have_a_Problem_With_It~20020801.htm
But you have to realize Mike Holt may not want to get in the center of all this, especially when he exists through the products we purchase from him which are based in what the NFPA says and does.
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
MH did not shy away from taking a new and radical position on flexible cords versus power cords.
But in that case there was no manufacturer interest on either side.
But in that case there was no manufacturer interest on either side.
romex jockey
Senior Member
- Location
- Vermont
- Occupation
- electrician
Yeah Sierra
As an EC it becomes more than product validation , it becomes a liability in callbacks ,confrontation ,litigation.....none of which the manufacturers will 'eat' .....
~RJ~
romex jockey
Senior Member
- Location
- Vermont
- Occupation
- electrician
Conspiracies exist only due to lack of clarity and transparency
As such, it would behoove the advocates of this (et all) technology to take the time to do so
At the end of the day, when all is laid out and explained , those in the 'con' position would be forced to agree ,if not abandon it for a 'pro' one
I would suggest the 'pro contingent' rise to this challenge vs the hubris it has established via mandates.
~RJ~
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
In some cases the old bx cable will heat up and glow rather than trip a breaker when a ground fault is present. I am no expert on afci but if there is a continuous arc or arcing that is causing this condition I suspect the afci would trip.
mbrooke
Batteries Included
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- United States
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- Technician
Is the glowing itself usually restive or does it create an arc signature? Or arcing at the fault usually accompanies the glowing?
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
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- Retired Electrical Contractor
I believe at some point it can be both. It may start as arcing and then become constant contact
romex jockey
Senior Member
- Location
- Vermont
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- electrician
- Location
- Massachusetts
In the case of old BX, in my own opinion that GFCI or GFP would be much quicker to react than AFCI without GFP.
In the case of old BX heating, other than for some very odd circumstances it is a detectable ground fault well before heating or any arcing is going to happen.
In the case of old BX heating, other than for some very odd circumstances it is a detectable ground fault well before heating or any arcing is going to happen.
mbrooke
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- United States
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Makes sense, I would think the same. In that case 30/50ma GFP should not be removed from AFCIs as its currently taking place by some manufactures.
Joe Engels made a CMP proposal to keep GFP in AFCIs but it was rejected. I somehow have the feeling this is why BPH keeps bailing on my question.
romex jockey
Senior Member
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- Vermont
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- electrician
mbrooke
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- United States
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True, but this is old BX cable without a bonding strip where a hot wire is touching a metal box enclosure.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
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- EC
If old BX is heating up and even glowing - it is because there is fault current flowing on it. The reason they required a bonding conductor in AC cables many years ago is because the sheath alone has too much resistance to be a reliable equipment grounding conductor. Simpler GFCI technology will trip when this kind of thing happens though, and probably much faster then AFCI will respond
- Location
- Massachusetts
And male Leghorn chickens weigh 4-5 pounds at adulthood but that is not what we are talking about is it?
Explain how the BX we are talking about can heat up without a ground fault.
Don't wonder off into left field, stick with the specific topic you pulled my quote from.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Can't answer for RJ, but I have a feeling he wasn't considering the BX cable sheath would typically only carry current during a ground fault but rather that any high resistance can cause glowing connection.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Which is fine, but he should not use my quote that was specifically about glowing BX cable as the the place to add that info because it was not about that.
mbrooke
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- United States
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- Technician
Go easy, Im sure it was an honest mistake misreading something in the haste of things
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
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