AFCI BERAKER
- Thread starter domnic
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- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
What would you need one for? They are not required for anything other than 15 and 20A circuits.
K8MHZ
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrician
So, AFCI is something that would only be used where required? It's not something that would have any benefit beyond fulfilling a legal requirement?
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
Sure. They'd be great things to install in ex wife's homes.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
That would depend on your point of view as to the functionality of the AFCI device. If you think that it does something useful, then you may want to go beyond the code requirements.
jumper
Senior Member
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- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
- Location
- Massachusetts
In my opinion installing GFCIs would provide more bang for the buck.
mbrooke
Batteries Included
- Location
- United States
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- Technician
I agree, considering an AFCI is nothing more then a glorified GFCI.
But even then foreign countries which have required arc mitigation technology for decades have shown that AFCIs will not decrease electrical fires here in North America.
K8MHZ
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrician
K8MHZ
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrician
mbrooke
Batteries Included
- Location
- United States
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- Technician
Even if you use a really, really long extension cord?
:lol: As long as it HVDC it will work fine :thumbsup:
But I think this is where the ultimate proof lays.
People will make the argument that North America has higher rates of dwelling fire and that is true to a degree, however that can be accounted for the fact most homes in mainland Europe are of brick and mason construction. When one sits down to look at fire statistics from other countries having a large percentage of wood framed homes like Norway, which interestingly has some of the strictest electrical standards on earth (heck it is even illegal for a homeowner to DIY electrical), fire statistics continue to be comparable.
Similar can be said about countries that have adopted the mass use of RCDs on all branch circuits: there has not been a significant drop in dwelling fires since.
Considering that RCDs and low magnetic trip does everything a branch feeder AFCI claims to do, it has already been proven through statistics that this will not reduce fires. Thus is can be theorized that arcing, or what ever else AFCIs look for is not the cause of most dwelling fires (assuming arcing is a problem to begin with).
- Location
- Massachusetts
Is it true?
I am not picking on you, I don't know if it is true or not. However I do know if the methodology of collecting the data is not the same country to country any comparison of the statistics is meaningless.
mbrooke
Batteries Included
- Location
- United States
- Occupation
- Technician
Thats what I keep seeing based on statistics. You make a good point that data is gathered in different ways, however imho (as a whole) after the mass mandate of RCDs and so forth those statistics should have gone down.
ESFi and manufacturers claim that thousands of home fires are the result of arcing, and if that were true it should also hold true for foreign wood framed buildings.
- Location
- Massachusetts
I can only comment about experiences around my area but unless a fire is thought to be a homicide no 'real' investigation is done.
So I wonder what these claims are based on?
mbrooke
Batteries Included
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- United States
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- Technician
That true, most fires never receive an in depth investigation. Often the case is written down as electrical without sufficient evidence to back that up.
But my thinking is this. Lets say 30,000 home fires each year are from arcing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-SBly_2bPQ That would mean arcing is a major problem in electrical systems and it should be plaguing all electrical systems in all countries, especially those with 230 volts phase to ground. With the implementation of arc mitigation techniques there should be at least a 20,000 (assuming effecting worst case scenario) a year decline in fires after adjustments are made. However at the end there seems to be no reduction. Fires continue to happen at the rate they did prior.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Which leads us nowhere.
It could mean the arc mitigation technology does not work
Or it could mean that the fires are not from arcing
Or it could mean the data collection is flawed.
mbrooke
Batteries Included
- Location
- United States
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- Technician
I would theorize #2. Data is similar across the globe when a before and after is made. A good example is France which went from a system much like ours to RCDs/low mag/megger ect and still no major fire reduction.
This vid is the only example I could find outside of raw data (ok I will admit the vid is cheesy but it make the point lol) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMC6PkpiIq4
- Location
- Massachusetts
That is pretty much my point, it's just guessing. You don't know, I don't know ... No one knows.
That being the case I find it a waste of time.
And YouTube is worse than guessing
mbrooke
Batteries Included
- Location
- United States
- Occupation
- Technician
And neither does NEMA, the CMP or others. Which is why AFCIs were passed under false pretense. 30,000 home fires have yet to be demonstrated to be from arcing.
Same here, unless the true cause of all these fires are verified manufactures need to stop the arcing trilogy.
And YouTube is worse than guessing
Hes an electrician in France who knows the history, I will take his word here.
But I find it difficult to dispute no drop in fires in nearly every country RCD/low mag ect is mandated. To me this is evidence the CMP should have researched first to find the efficacy of AFCIs before mandating them. At this point they were mandated on arbitrary hopes.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
More than likely a combination of all of the above.
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