AFCI BERAKER

[brantmacga]

Do they make a two pole AFCI 30 amp or 50 amp ect.

I could be totally making this up, but I could almost swear someone was on here 2-3 years ago talking about a multi-family job where they had 2-pole 50A afci's feeding sub panels.

I want to say they had an issue with several of them tripping from heat induction from neighboring breakers and they were back-and-forth with the manufacturer trying to figure this out.

Maybe someone else remembers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[romex jockey]

Afci version #1 assumed some notable heat.

I had inspectors insist i spaced them every other ocpd back then...

The conjecture is they altered the thermal part of the thermal magnetic qualities since

~RJ~

 

[kwired]

That would depend on your point of view as to the functionality of the AFCI device. If you think that it does something useful, then you may want to go beyond the code requirements.

That true, most fires never receive an in depth investigation. Often the case is written down as electrical without sufficient evidence to back that up.

From what I have seen they maybe are fairly accurate at determining an electrical component is in the vicinity of the source of the fire - but they seldom do enough further investigation to find out why it started the fire or if it actually did start the fire.

At this point it is like making threads pointing out water is wet.

and some of the physics experts can go on for 1000 posts on just how wet water may be

I could be totally making this up, but I could almost swear someone was on here 2-3 years ago talking about a multi-family job where they had 2-pole 50A afci's feeding sub panels.

If something is not going to sell it likely is not going to be made - unless it is forced upon us in codes

With as much issues as there seems to be with "nuisance tripping" who in their right mind wants to supply a sub panel from a 50 amp AFCI? It is bad enough to find the problem on a single branch circuit at times - and with current AFCI requirements for nearly all of the house - one unidentified minor glitch kills nearly the entire home if you want to try to protect everything through one device. Users will not be happy with that either.

So the need for anything besides 15 and 20 amp AFCI's is just not really there.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

From what I have seen they maybe are fairly accurate at determining an electrical component is in the vicinity of the source of the fire - but they seldom do enough further investigation to find out why it started the fire or if it actually did start the fire. ....

Yes, the point of origin and the probable ignition source they can do well with, but they can't say arcing fault or glowing connection.

 

[romex jockey]

If something is not going to sell it likely is not going to be made - unless it is forced upon us in codes

With as much issues as there seems to be with "nuisance tripping" who in their right mind wants to supply a sub panel from a 50 amp AFCI? It is bad enough to find the problem on a single branch circuit at times - and with current AFCI requirements for nearly all of the house - one unidentified minor glitch kills nearly the entire home if you want to try to protect everything through one device. Users will not be happy with that either.

So the need for anything besides 15 and 20 amp AFCI's is just not really there.

Basic economics would dictate most of my customers opting for a split buss panel w/4 50A afci's , vs. 30-40 individual afci's

Besides, UL1699 has already sanctioned them

So the Q you should really ask is, why can't we have the option?

~RJ~

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Basic economics would dictate most of my customers opting for a split buss panel w/4 50A afci's , vs. 30-40 individual afci's

Besides, UL1699 has already sanctioned them

So the Q you should really ask is, why can't we have the option?

~RJ~

Because the economics don't work for the breaker manufacturers, so why would they offer them and cut their profits?

 

[mbrooke]

Basic economics would dictate most of my customers opting for a split buss panel w/4 50A afci's , vs. 30-40 individual afci's

Besides, UL1699 has already sanctioned them

So the Q you should really ask is, why can't we have the option?

~RJ~

Id say cost, a sub main AFCI will not bring in as much profit.

I know guys on here say they would not go for that and yes its worse for trouble shooting and occupants but some guys are bringing that question up a lot.

 

[peter d]

Id say cost, a sub main AFCI will not bring in as much profit.

I know guys on here say they would not go for that and yes its worse for trouble shooting and occupants but some guys are bringing that question up a lot.

It is a cheaper solution but not a good solution. It will end up causing more aggravation in the long run.

 

[mbrooke]

It is a cheaper solution but not a good solution. It will end up causing more aggravation in the long run.

If its AFCIs you can bet you life savings

 

[kwired]

Basic economics would dictate most of my customers opting for a split buss panel w/4 50A afci's , vs. 30-40 individual afci's

Besides, UL1699 has already sanctioned them

So the Q you should really ask is, why can't we have the option?

~RJ~

All the threads we see here with troubles finding why an AFCI is tripping and you want to shut down anywhere from 25% to 100% of the AFCI protected circuits in the home whenever there is a problem on one circuit? You must like call backs. And remember if it is shutting down a major portion of the home it becomes even more urgent to the HO that you get there NOW, where when just one branch circuit is effected it can maybe wait until Monday if it is happening on a weekend.

 

[iwire]

Basic economics would dictate most of my customers opting for a split buss panel w/4 50A afci's , vs. 30-40 individual afci's

Besides, UL1699 has already sanctioned them

So the Q you should really ask is, why can't we have the option?

~RJ~

Basic economics would prevent any sane EC from going that route.

Less profit, more hours of troubleshooting.

 

[kwired]

Basic economics would prevent any sane EC from going that route.

Less profit, more hours of troubleshooting.

And depending on circumstances the troubleshooting may be non profit warranty work. The installers are the ones losing financially on these AFCI's as they are the ones coming back after install often at no charge to find out what the troubles are. Sure they may get a free replacement AFCI occasionally, doesn't make up for any of the lost time they put in though and the profit from markup on all the AFCI's sold vanishes quickly on some situations where it is difficult to determine why they are tripping.

 

[iwire]

And depending on circumstances the troubleshooting may be non profit warranty work.

:roll:

Ya think?

 

[chilada]

Tank won't explode just because it was leaking and then exposed to molten copper. A leaking O2 cylinder could definitely fuel any fire that would have started in the immediate vicinty due to the increased oxygen concentration.

I didn't say the tank would explode, however there would be a devastating explosion. I call that nitpicking to be right.

Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk

 

[user 100]

I didn't say the tank would explode, however there would be a devastating explosion. I call that nitpicking to be right.

Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk

You weren't being nitpicked-you referred to "it" exploding and from the way you worded it, it could easily be interpreted to mean the o2 tank itself would explode after it was exposed to the arc flash-something that by itself wouldn't cause any leaking o2 cylinder to explode.

 

[chilada]

You weren't being nitpicked-you referred to "it" exploding and from the way you worded it, it could easily be interpreted to mean the o2 tank itself would explode after it was exposed to the arc flash-something that by itself wouldn't cause any leaking o2 cylinder to explode.

I'm sorry. I should haVe elaborated. Oxygen enriched environments mixed with arc flash will explode.

[/URL]

Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk

 

[kwired]

I'm sorry. I should haVe elaborated. Oxygen enriched environments mixed with arc flash will explode.

[/URL]

Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk

There is another fairly current thread on this topic, most agree that oxygen itself is not explosive, but is an important component needed for combustion. To have fire you need a fuel, oxygen, and a heat source to get things started. Optimal mixture of fuel and oxygen then throw in an ignition source can produce an explosion. Oxygen with no other fuel will not burn or explode.

Throw in an arc flash in electrical gear in an oxygen rich environment and you may have more burning of the contacts, bus, or whatever is involved in the arc flash then you otherwise normally would. Put the gear in a nitrogen rich environment or better yet an inert gas like argon and you will reduce the arc flash effects to some extent. Electric energy input into the event is initially same, but amount of material that gets burned off and extra energy produced by burning that material is reduced with the inert gas - increased with the presence of oxygen.

 

[mbrooke]

I agree. Oxygen is an oxidizer, by itself it will do nothing. The issue is that it accelerates combustion.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I didn't say the tank would explode, however there would be a devastating explosion. ...

Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk

Not likely. The combustion in an oxygen enriched atmosphere will be more rapid than normal, but with must fuels, it will not be any where near rapid enough to be an explosion.

 

[mbrooke]

Not likely. The combustion in an oxygen enriched atmosphere will be more rapid than normal, but with must fuels, it will not be any where near rapid enough to be an explosion.

Propane, Hydrogen and methane would be the exception?