AFCI brakers on same buss bar

[a.wayne3@verizon.net]

The other day while doing a hot check on a home
I ran into the following situation.while turning on all breakers the trim crew had placed 2 afci breakers on opposite sides of a panel on the same buss bar.I tured the left breaker on and then the right ,Both tripped out.I figured at first that these circuits had been double fed since when I turned the 2nd breaker on it tripped the other one.As it turned out theses were not double fed
the trim crew had placed ground wire of a receptacle on the hot side casing the circuit to trip.Ok that make sence but why did it trip the other breaker,By the way these were homeline sq d
panels.any thoughts...........

 

[txsparky]

Re: AFCI brakers on same buss bar

the trim crew had placed ground wire of a receptacle on the hot side casing the circuit to trip.

I'd be digging alot deeper into the wiring if I had a trim crew doing this kind of work.

 

[a.wayne3@verizon.net]

Re: AFCI brakers on same buss bar

Sorry to say but when your company does about 2000 homes a year and the qualified electricians are scarce,installers are what you get.But my original question is still why did it trip the 2nd afci on that buss?????

 

[jxofaltrds]

Re: AFCI brakers on same buss bar

I'll bet that this is a 14-3nm or 12-3nm feeding two circuits. This will cause the above problem.

Mike P.

 

[a.wayne3@verizon.net]

Re: AFCI brakers on same buss bar

nope it was 2 seperate 14/2 hrs to 2 separate parts of the home.Both were afci circuits and the trim crew happened to place them on the same buss on opposite sides of the panel when the first circuit tripped the second ond tripped also i moved the breaker to anothe buss on the same phase and it held.But when on same buss the affected breaker would trip the second one.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: AFCI brakers on same buss bar

This is great stuff.

moved the breaker to anothe buss on the same phase and it held.

Have you, by chance, tried removing the branch circuit conductors from either or both AFCI breakers, and then tried the turn on sequences? I am assuming the breakers are back together on opposite sides of the enclosure and connected to the same buss tongue for this test.

 

[pierre]

Re: AFCI brakers on same buss bar

a.wayne3,

I don't know if you own the company, but any company that is doing 2000 homes a year can afford to stop putting all the money in their pockets and start training the men to AT LEAST THE MINIMUM SAFETY. I get really pissed off when I hear, 'I'm too busy to train or the men or untrainable'. That kind of company is putting the consumer, other workers, and anybody else who comes in contact with their work in jepardy. Sometimes these bigger companies loose sight of why we do this work. What happened to 'PRIDE'?

Pierre

 

[iwire]

Re: AFCI brakers on same buss bar

2000 a year is 7 or 8 a day without Saturdays, this requires a large workforce.

Some of this workforce will be green apprentices, and some just plain uncaring.

That's lot of devices, mistakes get made.

That's why there are punch lists, or am I the only one that gets them?

 

[jxofaltrds]

Re: AFCI brakers on same buss bar

I'll bet that neutrals of different circuits (on the same phase) are tied together somewhere. You name the bet.

Mike P.

 

[a.wayne3@verizon.net]

Re: AFCI brakers on same buss bar

Iwire,you hit the nail on the head!!!!!!!! We have over 150 people in the field daily.......
Many of these guys are installers and just that.
Yes there are ALOT of devices installed daily and for the most part they are installed correctly.But when you have that many people working mistakes do happen.I wonder who in this forum was born an electrician

 

[pierre]

Re: AFCI brakers on same buss bar

A.Wayne3

When I broke into the industry I was as greeeeeen as they get. The company sometimes had 200 or more men in the field, so I know that some are there for a 'paycheck', a tough situation that I do not have an answer for. I will say that when I started my company, my choice was to stay small to avoid what I perceive a problem in training a large work force. I am glad to see that you try to train the men ( I did not mean to attack you personally I was venting), are you a union shop? If not how are these men getting theory training? I am not a believer the employer is responsible to pay for training, but I do see that the results of good training pay big dividends later.

Think about this... How much does it cost your company to repair the mistakes made? If you were to start a training program in the company and reduced some of those mistakes (mistakes are inevitable, human nature) would it offset those costs, how about the 'aggravation factor'?

I know it is a tough day trying to keep everyone happy, just food for thought.

Pierre

 

[pierre]

Re: AFCI brakers on same buss bar

P.S. In my ranting I forgot to mention, did you try to contact the manufacturer to see if they have come across this problem? AFCI's will be a learning experience for us all for a while.

Pierre

 

[a.wayne3@verizon.net]

Re: AFCI brakers on same buss bar

Pierre no we are not a union shop.Just a growing
company that is dealing with the lack of trained personel in the workforce available.We try and teach our employees as much as we can,but this is a bussiness and not a trade school so there is alot of OJT going on.Mistakes are getting less and less as these employees get more experience but still finding they are there.......All and all I suppose we are doing as well as we can with what we have.I just started a code theory class after work.There is no pay just knowledge available and the response has been good.I hope this helps those employees that are wanting to learn and advance in the field.I guess time will tell

 

[lu302dan]

Re: AFCI brakers on same buss bar

Did you ever hear the old saying "You get what you pay for" I know that the scale for a WIREMAN in Florida is pretty low. I see a lot of wireman out here in California because of the low wage in Florida, and many other states for that matter because of company hiring practices like this. California is currently implementing that all employess working under a C-10 (electrical contractor) have gone through a certified apprenticeship program recognized by the state and also be a licensed journeyman wireman after completion of apprenticeship. This will be enforced in 2005 I believe I HOPE and believe this will eliminate or severely reduce hiring unskilled installers for everyones safety! Not to mention that maybe a fair wage will be paid to all! We'll see what happens!

 

[a.wayne3@verizon.net]

Re: AFCI brakers on same buss bar

In theory it is a great idea but in all practicality that senario would cause havoc here.Since Florida is the most transient state in this country.As far as wgaes go my company is the highest paying company in this entire area,and the consturction boom has exploded and there is no slow down in sight.Since the first of the year we signed 7 new subdivisions with anywhere from 150 to 900 homes in each one,so the need for qualified personel has increased far more than the availibility.......I hold a class after work 2 days a week 3 hours a day to help these guys/gals learn and advance in our company,it really seems to be helping.....Our red tags have decreased and call backs have lessened
Allen

 

[cs409]

Re: AFCI brakers on same buss bar

what happened when you switched on breakers in question one at a time without the other on(before you found the ground on hot)?? also, r you sure the gound in the circuit in question(as in ground to hot)was isolated to the bedroom in question or does it enter a J box somewhere? also,,,,what was turned on in the house(as in lights etc etc etc and etc_).....thanks,,,as with any new items,,,it will take us many head scraches to figure out all the weird problems....i do agree with one reply,,,if u found a GROUND BARE COPPER CONNECTED TO THE HOT SIDE) i think i would first find out WHO did it,,,2nd,,,i would put this house in question to as many what if possiblities to see what happens!

best to you

 

[a.wayne3@verizon.net]

Re: AFCI brakers on same buss bar

When the circuit with the fault was turned on first it tripped instantly.but if the other circuit was on first and then this one was turned on it tripped both circuits out.When i moved the circuits on different phases only the ciruit with the fault tripped.This only tripped both when they were on the same buss bar.Thats the counfusing part ?????Is it possible that the afci that had no defects sensed the fault when it was on the same buss ????As far as the installer was concerned he was written a reprimand and read the riot act........It would be great if we had all qualified people (all electricians ) but the demand far exceeds the supply available........

 

[sokomind]

Re: AFCI brakers on same buss bar

Had same problem at a hot check. It turned out that the two neutrals were swapped between the 2 branch circuits.

 

[a.wayne3@verizon.net]

Re: AFCI brakers on same buss bar

That was my exact thought at the begining,that neutrals had been shared.....But that isn`t the case these are 2 different circuits on opposite sides of the home(no shared neutrals)I couldnt explain it and when placed on different buss bars in the panel both held fine (well after fixing original problem that is)

 

[mdb94]

Re: AFCI brakers on same buss bar

Is this the main panel in question, or a sub panel? If it is a sub, are the grounds and neutrals separated correctly? Is there a chance someone inadvertantly bonded the neutral bar to the panel? If they enter the panel through the same KO, are you sure the two neutrals aren't crossed? Last, disconnect both load neutrals and grounds and run a continuity test between them. All combinations of these four wires.