AFCI, Ceiling Fans, Tripping

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jkight

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Been there, done that?

The company I work for wires over 11,000 homes a year, a good many under jurisdictions that have adopted the 1999 NEC.

So Arc Faults are required.

We decided early to get a jump on the NEC, and require (as the 2002 NEC does) that ALL outlets in a bedroom be AFCI protected. (With the sole exception of the smoke detectors, although the 2002 NEC will require those to be protected as well).

We are having problems with certain ceiling fans, and certain fan speed controllers nuisance tripping the Arc Faults. However, there is no consistency to the problem. Two fans of the same make and model will have different results, one trips the AFCI, the other doesn?t. Same thing with the speed controllers.

Look, we are ?old hands? with AFCI?s, having installed (and troubleshot) literally thousands. I?m not looking for suggestions on how to figure out what we wired wrong.

I?m looking to find out if this problem is as widespread as I think it is. And to find out if anyone is working on a fix (or if one already exists).

The Fans we?re having issues with right now are by Monte Carlo (a Seagull subsidiary), and the speed controllers are from Lutron.
 
Re: AFCI, Ceiling Fans, Tripping

Out of curiosity, where are you?

Roger
 
Re: AFCI, Ceiling Fans, Tripping

Sunny Arizona, land of many jurisdictions.

We work in over 50 jurisdictions, just in this state.

1987 to the 2002 NEC, and the 2000 and 2003 IRC as well !

Oh, and of course, local ammendments.
 
Re: AFCI, Ceiling Fans, Tripping

Jknight

If you are useing older ITE seamens type AFCI's they have only a 5ma GFP and will nuisance trip.
These early version AFCI also didn't have any surge protection so any motor load being switched off will produce a spike. and fan controls that have the 3 or 4 click speed settings will do this. This spike happens in a half of a cycle and look's like an inbalance between the hot and neutral this is why it trips. Pluging in a surge suppressor close to the switch will sometimes eliminiate the problem. but later versions of AFCI's do have MOV's in them and are not as much as a problem. If it is ITE your useing you will know the older ones as they hang over the neutral buss bar. they are longer than the regular breakers. the newer ones are the same size as a regular breaker. GFCI's had this same problem way back when we use to have the master bedroom bath GFCI on with the bedroom lights. or a outside GFCI receptacle on the same circuit as a dinningroom fan. Also there are other manufactures that are produceing AFCI's with a 5ma trip GFP also.
Hope this helps.
 
Re: AFCI, Ceiling Fans, Tripping

Sorry, I seem to have left out one of the most relevant details !

These are brand spanking new Cutler Hammer, BR series, single pole, 120 volt, 15 amp AFCI
 
Re: AFCI, Ceiling Fans, Tripping

Originally posted by jkight:
Sunny Arizona, land of many jurisdictions.

We work in over 50 jurisdictions, just in this state.

1987 to the 2002 NEC, and the 2000 and 2003 IRC as well !

Oh, and of course, local ammendments.
Click to expand...
:D
 
Re: AFCI, Ceiling Fans, Tripping

Did you contact your C-H rep?
We use only CH series loadcenters and breakers, and I know in that line, Cutler Hammer has once again added new technology making the breakers another 3/4" longer.
We have not had a problem with any ceiling fan tripping any CH breaker.
 
Re: AFCI, Ceiling Fans, Tripping

And the truth be told, we don't have that many problems with ceiling fans, speed controllers and arc faults either . . . but realize, when you wire as many homes a year as we do (as I said, over 11K), a tenth of one percent is eleven homes.

We are in a unique position to spot this sort of trend (if it is one).
 
Re: AFCI, Ceiling Fans, Tripping

i agree with luke warmwater on contacting CH,,,,if your company is wiring 11,000 houses a year in your area and am assuming CH equipment is used always, i think i would have called CH at first light,,,with app. 220,000 or more breakers used in a year for 11,000 houses, i would think they would have no problem helping with this problem(and that 220,000 breakers would include 33,000 AFCI breakers or more)! i could go over many ideas to check out etc etc...but as you stated, Look, we are ?old hands? with AFCI?s, having installed (and troubleshot) literally thousands. I?m not looking for suggestions on how to figure out what we wired wrong.

I?m looking to find out if this problem is as widespread as I think it is. And to find out if anyone is working on a fix (or if one already exists).

if the problem is only 11homes(and i know,,,1 home with this problem is to many!!!),,,,well,,,that aint bad,,,,if it was 1000homes with this problem,,,then u would have a major head ache..
 
Re: AFCI, Ceiling Fans, Tripping

Cutler-Hammer was, of course the first people we contacted.

I think most of the service gear manufacturers have become numb with questions, and tend to default to their stock answers:

"Stapled too tight"
"Faulty load"
"Neutral problems"

Yeh yeh yeh . . we ?get it.

I'm all for the protection AFCI's bring, and I subscribe to all the trade magazines, so I know the statistics regarding the harmful nature of arcing faults.

I'll digress a bit here . . our biggest challenge isn't the little pin prick the breakers cause . . it's that we work in over 50 different jurisdictions, with differing codes, ammendments and interpretations. Anywhere from the 1987 NEC to the 2002 NEC/2003 IRC.
 
Re: AFCI, Ceiling Fans, Tripping

oops . . just realized I was being repetitious with my rant about the different jurisdictions . .

heh heh . . . it's a daily thing, and it's been a few days since my last post
 
Re: AFCI, Ceiling Fans, Tripping

I spoke with Mr. 15amp CH AFCI or maybe it was his bigger brother 20amp today,,,,he said they really enjoy pin pricking in areas that have more than 50 different jurisdictions...seems they just dont like to be out pricked. :D
makes working for McDonalds sound better every day....only one code ,,,if you mess with a prick, you have to wash up.and if you forget the code not to worry, its posted on the exit door. ;)
 
Re: AFCI, Ceiling Fans, Tripping

Brendan Folley is the CH AFCI product manager. Have you conacted him? I have met him at two IAEI meetings. I'll take a copy of this post with me to the NPFA annual meeting in Salt Lake City and discuss it with him.
 
Re: AFCI, Ceiling Fans, Tripping

I would investigate the possibility of the distorted wave form, created by the dimmer, appearing as a fault to the sensor logic.

[ February 28, 2004, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: bennie ]
 
Re: AFCI, Ceiling Fans, Tripping

Hi Bennie
Glad your back. If someone were to connect a recording oscilloscope to the line side of this circuit they would see a sharp spike each time the fan is switched between speeds or turned off. this is because of the coil effect that when a coil load is switched off the electrons keep going. producing the spike. This spike happen's in less than a half of a cycle which causes an imbalance in the AFCI between the hot and neutral which trips the AFCI something like the distorted wave form like what Bennie said. when these speed selectable fan controls (like the Duo-De-hummer) are switched between speeds there is a short moment that the fan is switched off then back on. This causes this spike. This used to trip GFCI's that were on the same circuit. and now the AFCI's are having the same problem. I use to use a MOV across the line side of the control when we had the problem with GFCI's but they have since included them in the GFCI. but ITE had this problem with their first series of AFCI's but the newer ones do have the MOV in them I'm not sure about CH. as they don't have much on their web site. This is one of those problems that you have to know a little about electrical theory to understand why it happens.
 
Re: AFCI, Ceiling Fans, Tripping

Making the broad assumption that the cause as described by bennie and Hurk27 is correct, what then should we do as a solution?

As I've read through the posts, (and I was contacted by a CH rep almost the same night as the original post), one aspect of this takes on more import . . . and that is this:

Due to our sheer volume, we have quite a little heft we can throw around. I see now, that we should not have been satisfied with the shrug and technically fancy answers given us to date.

I want a CH rep in the field, scratching his head!

Thanks for all the good info and advice (excluding, of course, the MacDonalds recommendations).
 
Re: AFCI, Ceiling Fans, Tripping

JKnight

While there can be may cause's of AFCI problems. And all have to be investigated to find the cause. What I posted was just from the experience that I have found with these click type fan controls. And that would only be a factor if no other loads are causing any problems on this circuit. as wrong neutrals, grounded neutrals, would show up when any other load is applied. Unlike a GFCI the 30ma GFP in a AFCI needs a load before it will trip when these other problems are there and when turning on the light or plugging in a load causes the AFCI to trip then the point of trouble shooting turns toward the neutral as being the problem. But in your case just the fan with the click type speed control is causing the problem then it has to be the induction of spikes into the circuit as the source. If there is a light kit on these fans does the AFCI trip when it is turned on? if so then it is possible that the neutral at the fan is grounded,

Like I said in a previous post. This problem is not new as back when the master bath receptacle was on with the master bedroom and the fan control was a Duo-De- Hummer, this problem was causing the GFCI'S to trip. And we tracked it down to the spikes produced when any coil is turned off. This use to happen with a washer on a GFCI protected circuit. and it would almost always happen right when the fill valve switch off and you had a full tub of water. It was the fill valve spiking the circuit causing the GFCI to trip. so maybe this will give you something to ask the CH rep if there AFCI's are protected against spikes produced by the fan motor switching speeds.

[ February 28, 2004, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
 
Re: AFCI, Ceiling Fans, Tripping

If anyone wants to see a real show, put a flourescent fixture on a speed control circuit? Everything goes ape :(
 
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