AFCI confusion

[hs545]

I just added a second floor with bedroom and a bath. I understand the codes for the hall and bath but the more I read about AFCI the more confused I get. Most of the recepticals will be dedicated and on AFCI breakers. I am not clear on lighting though.
Do dedicated lighting circuits in a bedroom require AFCI also?

Do outdoor floodlights that are switched from a bedroom and from a non bedroom require AFCI protection?

Do outlets near a wetbar in bedroom get GFCI or AFCI protection?

Sorry for the long post.

Herb

 

[iwire]

Re: AFCI confusion

Originally posted by hs545:
Most of the receptacles will be dedicated and on AFCI breakers. I am not clear on lighting though. Do dedicated lighting circuits in a bedroom require AFCI also?

Yes the lighting in the bedroom requires AFCI protection, this would apply whether or not the circuit is dedicated.

Originally posted by hs545:
Do outdoor floodlights that are switched from a bedroom and from a non bedroom require AFCI protection?

I would say no the switch is not an outlet and the switch is not suppling an outlet in the room.

Article 100 Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

210.12(B) Dwelling Unit Bedrooms. All branch circuits that supply 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter listed to provide protection of the entire branch circuit.

Originally posted by hs545:
Do outlets near a wet bar in bedroom get GFCI or AFCI protection?

210.8(A)(7)Wet bar sinks ? where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces and are located within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the wet bar sink.

IMO you need both, an AFCI breaker at the panel and a GFCI receptacle at the wet bar.

However I do not work with AFCIs so maybe someone else can jump in here to give you a better idea of what you need to do at this wet bar.

[ October 27, 2003, 04:44 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[pierre]

Re: AFCI confusion

That wet bar has very special considerations.
1. a good fridge to keep the beer just right.
2. no less than 2 bottles of 12 yr old scotch.
3. a cheap bottle of wine for those guests you can't wait to get rid of.

The wet bar in the bedroom is an issue I would bring up with the AHJ, and discuss how he would inspect it. If the receptacle is within 6 ft of the sink, it is required to be GFCI protected, and if in the bedroom, AFCI also, but I am not too sure how these will work together if from different devices.

Pierre

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: AFCI confusion

There are combinstion AFCI/GFCI devices available from at least one manufacturer. This device has a true 5mA trip GFCI and is listed as such. There should be no issues putting a GFCI receptacle on an AFCI circuit. If there are any issues, then the AFCI design is defective.
Don

 

[tonyi]

Re: AFCI confusion

Originally posted by pierre:
I am not too sure how these will work together if from different devices.

Pierre

AFCI followed by GFCI receptical works fine. I've put in a bunch like this on old work retrofit stuff with no problems. There's also the Cutler combo AF/GF breakers that do both functions in one breaker.

If you go with the "classified" flavor of the Cutler's CL115AFGF/CL120AFGF (as opposed to BR115AFGF/BR120AFGF), then you could use them in other than Cutler panels.

 

[roger]

Re: AFCI confusion

Tony, do you protect the smoke detector with the combo breaker? If you do you're in violation of NFPA 72

Roger

 

[tonyi]

Re: AFCI confusion

Originally posted by roger:
Tony, do you protect the smoke detector with the combo breaker? If you do you're in violation of NFPA 72

Roger

Most older places are using battery only units.

 

[roger]

Re: AFCI confusion

Tony,

Most older places are using battery only units.

what does that have to do with this thread?

Don't you think it would be a good idea to make sure someone asking this question is not led to use something that would violate a code seeing that this is a new addition?

Roger

 

[tonyi]

Re: AFCI confusion

Originally posted by roger:
Tony,

Most older places are using battery only units.

what does that have to do with this thread?

Don't you think it would be a good idea to make sure someone asking this question is not led to use something that would violate a code seeing that this is a new addition?

Roger

If its an addition as described, the most reasonable approach would be to simply extend the existing alarm branch into the area since they all have to be interconnected.

Unless you wanted to create more work rewiring all the smokes in the place, there's no point in feeding them from one of the light/receptical branches in this addition.

 

[roger]

Re: AFCI confusion

Now wait a minute, is this the same Tony that is bringing his mothers 1989 dwelling up to 2002 codes, preaches AFCI's and the sky is falling scenarios as far as possible calamities?

If the job is permitted under 02 and hs545 is installing AFCI's at all, the AFCI protection for the smoke detector would most likely be required.

In any case, to be responsible posting information you should mention AFCI/GFCI combo's can't be used to protect circuits serving smoke detectors.

Roger

[ October 27, 2003, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: roger ]

 

[curt swartz]

Re: AFCI confusion

Roger

Does NFPA 72 state that smoke detectors can not be on GFCI protected circuits or that fire alarms can not be on GFCI protected circuits? Or both?

[ October 27, 2003, 10:03 PM: Message edited by: curt swartz ]

 

[tonyi]

Re: AFCI confusion

Originally posted by roger:
Now wait a minute, is this the same Tony that is bringing his mothers 1989 dwelling up to 2002 codes, preaches AFCI's and the sky is falling scenarios as far as possible calamities?

If the job is permitted under 02 and hs545 is installing AFCI's at all, the AFCI protection for the smoke detector would most likely be required.

In any case, to be responsible posting information you should mention AFCI/GFCI combo's can't be used to protect circuits serving smoke detectors.

Roger

So you'd put an AFCI on the existing smokes branch if you want the whole place to be (more or less) up to 2002 level - what's the big deal? Its not likely the existing smokes are fed from the new addition branches since they didn't exist when the the old smokes branch was put in.

And yes, the BR's and smokes in mom's place ARE now on AFCI branches...and I had to buy some expensive 2-pole GE units because the $%@! multiwired the whole place originally.

 

[iwire]

Re: AFCI confusion

Originally posted by tonyi:
And yes, the BR's and smokes in mom's place ARE now on AFCI branches...and I had to buy some expensive 2-pole GE units because the $%@! multiwired the whole place originally

You know I have to ask what your problem with Muiltiwire Branch circuits is?

Is your Mom in the habit of opening splices live causing over voltage on other parts of the circuit?

And what exactly are you saying in regards to the smokes?

You will pick and choose which NFPA codes you will follow?

Would you feed a Fire Alarm Control Panel with GFCIs or AFCIs?

Bob

[ October 28, 2003, 05:39 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[iwire]

Re: AFCI confusion

Originally posted by pierre:
but I am not too sure how these will work together if from different devices.

That was my question too.

I could not think of a reason they could not work together.

But without any real experience with that combination I was not comfortable saying they would work well together.

Thanks for the info Don & Tony

 

[roger]

Re: AFCI confusion

Tony,

Its not likely the existing smokes are fed from the new addition branches since they didn't exist when the the old smokes branch was put in.

Think addition only.

We can't selectively pick when we want to apply the code.

Why would you want to bring a code compliant 89 structure up to 02 standards?

BTW, I wouldn't waste money on an AFCI if I wasn't forced to.

Roger

[ October 28, 2003, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: roger ]

 

[tonyi]

Re: AFCI confusion

Originally posted by roger:
Why would you want to bring a code compliant 89 structure up to 02 standards?

BTW, I wouldn't waste money on an AFCI if I wasn't forced to.

Roger

Why come up to 02' standards?

Just because an old Model T still "works", doesn't mean its what you want to drive on a daily basis anymore. Airbags, seatbelts, modern tires, and good handling are nice to have.

There are significant changes from 88' to 02' that greatly increased the usability of an installation. Would you accept a place where both bathrooms recepticals, a garage receptical, both outside recepticals, an outside light, a hallway light, and the garage light were all on the same 15A branch?

People should not have to conciously coordinate their usage of stuff to avoid tripping breakers on a regular basis. An overload trip should be a very rare event, not an everyday occurance.

 

[tonyi]

Re: AFCI confusion

Originally posted by iwire:
I have to ask what your problem with Muiltiwire Branch circuits is?

Is your Mom in the habit of opening splices live causing over voltage on other parts of the circuit?

And what exactly are you saying in regards to the smokes?

I have no problem whatsoever with multiwires, I'll use'em where it makes sense to do so. The AFCI's for them are somewhat pricier than two singles though. Southwire is making a new NM product because of this AFCI price disparity.

I would extend the existing smokes branch to the addition and put it on an ordinary AFCI, end of story. That AFCI may or may not be required depending on whatever is being enforced locally. Apparently some want it, others don't care, and others even (IMO foolishly) prohibit it.

 

[hs545]

Re: AFCI confusion

According to my inspector all of the existing battery only smoke detectors have to be replaced with AC powered\battery backed detectors. Since they are in a bedroom they will all have to be on an AFCI circuit.

On another note, since 15A and 20A AFCI are the same price I am thinking it would be less expensive to install 20A AFCIs and run 12/2 wire for the outlets,etc. That way I could have more outlets on a circuit.

Is it ok to use 15A duplex recepticles on a 20A circuit?

 

[ryan_618]

Re: AFCI confusion

HS: your inspector is right. Smoke detectors are one area of the (building) code that is retro-active.

Originally posted by hs545:
Is it ok to use 15A duplex recepticles on a 20A circuit?

Yes.

 

[curt swartz]

Re: AFCI confusion

Oops.....posted in wrong place.

[ November 06, 2003, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: curt swartz ]