AFCI devices-tripping on arc-fault - although it may not be an actual arc-fault

[don_resqcapt19]

I have heard quite a bit about the "potential" changes to AFCI-GFCI issues. I have also read (never knowing what is good info or not), that there are CMP members in discussion of raising the 6mA to possibly 20mA. I also read that the consensus is the technology/AI are moving faster than the CMPs are able to address for the NEC. I can totally believe this, and have been in discussions with these topics for at least 3 years. I do not know the "way" this will be dealt with, but it is going to turn this industry upside-down. The electricians are going to be forced into specific areas of work, whether they like it or not. Education is the only way they will be able to move up the ladder. I see a lot of resistance and the field guys I speak with get decidedly angry with me. A NYC, very large company, is in the process of testing their men and either lowering pay/changing their titles (such as 1st yr journeyman, ETC...) for weak test results or laying them off.

Even when I did my IBEW apprenticeship in the mid 70's, apprentices that did not pass the school work did not move up to the next level of pay until they did. Typically you got pay raises every 1000 hours of work at the beginning and then later in the program the raises were 2000 hours of work apart. If the school work did not improve they were sometimes dropped from the program.

 

[winnie]

As I was reading I was wondering if your oven maybe had solid state control of the heating element(s), then you confirmed it. GFCI and AFCI both don't always play well with these things. High frequency switching and high frequency capacitive leakage is the trigger for tripping these things.

Your oven may not have played well with a GFCI either with such a controller in it.

PWM control of heating elements is generally much lower frequency than PWM control of motors, and the capacitive coupling to ground is much weaker. I would not expect PWM control of a toaster to be a problem for a GFCI. But there is always some risk whenever you 'enhance' the sensitivity of a test....

 

[kwired]

How did that add on help? Did it make the AFCI less effective? The AFCI obviously is not working as designed. Can I use it with QO, EATON? Why doesn't Siemens incorporate that technology if they know what needs to be added?

Just being hardball.

I'm in agreement with you here. I've heard some in the past say to use ferrite beads to help resolve AFCI tripping issues. Makes you wonder if by doing so you didn't basically turn the AFCI into a 10-12 times more expensive thermal magnetic breaker by doing so, and to some extent you probably effect the magnetic trip performance as well.

 

[W@ttson]

they sent me a copy of it

By the way this was that paper:

https://webstore.ansi.org/standards/nema/nemaabp2011

 

[pipe_bender]

apprentices that did not pass the school work did not move up to the next level of pay until they did. Typically you got pay raises every 1000 hours of work at the beginning and then later in the program the raises were 2000 hours of work apart. If the school work did not improve they were sometimes dropped from the program.

I had some relatives that worked in a supply house in long island back in the day, they have some crazy stories about NYC you can read all about how it worked here:

https://www.justice.gov/archive/usao/nys/pressreleases/October06/mclaughlinindictment.pdf

 

[PCBelarge]

Well, I believe AI is overrated in this industry, except for taking over the NEC. No way is it going to be able to do manual work.

Technology is changing, nothing new there. But I don't think it's something that can't be handled the way it's always been handled by us through training and attrition.



Does the union have anything to say about that??

-Hal

Hal,
60-70% of large projects in NYC are non-Union currently. Some non-union shops over 900 men. I taught one of those shops, 995 men in the field.
And yes, AI has not been as accurate as could be hoped - I believe, because there is so much poor info out there where that software takes from. I have recently noticed some better answers lately. In a year or so, I believe it is going to kick butt.

 

[PCBelarge]

I believe so. They also wouldn't let crap like that happen. But the reason I bought it up is because I don't think you can work in NYC without being a union member.

-Hal

Hal, I mentioned on one of your other posts that 60-70% of large projects in NYC are non-union shops.