AFCI failure and esperiences

[GUNNING]

I had a call about an arc fault circuit breaker. It was a typical loose connection on the hot side of the breaker. The wire insulation was burned up about 3 inches from the terminal of the breaker. It was an obvious loose terminal. The customer said she would pound on the cover of the panel till the lights came on in her bedroom. This worked for a while then I got the call.
My question is why did this happen to an AFCI breaker? I thought they were suppose to stop this? Have there been reports of defective AFCI's out there? It was a QO120 AFCI type. I know there was a recall a few years ago but this breaker is only a few months old. How are your experiences with the new AFCI's??:-?

 

[PetrosA]

I'm assuming all the N connections were made properly? I would be curious what SquareD has to say about it. Are they going to cover it under warranty?

 

[wptski]

I had a call about an arc fault circuit breaker. It was a typical loose connection on the hot side of the breaker. The wire insulation was burned up about 3 inches from the terminal of the breaker. It was an obvious loose terminal. The customer said she would pound on the cover of the panel till the lights came on in her bedroom. This worked for a while then I got the call.
My question is why did this happen to an AFCI breaker? I thought they were suppose to stop this? Have there been reports of defective AFCI's out there? It was a QO120 AFCI type. I know there was a recall a few years ago but this breaker is only a few months old. How are your experiences with the new AFCI's??:-?

A AFCI won't detect a series arc which you had.

 

[macmikeman]

A AFCI won't detect a series arc which you had.

The combination afci breakers are supposed to interrupt on that type of series fault. Perhaps this was the older style of gf.. er, I mean afci breaker that did not interrupt on series until it got over 75 or so amps of current.

 

[ELA]

The newer combination type AFCIs are supposed to detect a series arc. The detection level is greater than 5 amps for a series arc. So if the load was less than 5 amps it would not be required to trip.
If the load was greater than 5 amps one would expect it to detect and trip. I suppose it is possible for the connection to be loose enough to cause heating but not actually satisfying the arc signature requirement?

 

[wptski]

The newer combination type AFCIs are supposed to detect a series arc. The detection level is greater than 5 amps for a series arc. So if the load was less than 5 amps it would not be required to trip.
If the load was greater than 5 amps one would expect it to detect and trip. I suppose it is possible for the connection to be loose enough to cause heating but not actually satisfying the arc signature requirement?

Isn't a loose connection a series of micro-arcs? The so called "glowing connection" which I've read that a AFCI won't detect.

 

[GUNNING]

Rejects

Rejects

It didn't detect this one. The big sell on AFCI's is that they would detect and turn off power to a line if there is an arc. They are sounding like really expensive GFCI breakers now. If they don't detect arcing at the breaker I cant see them detecting it in the wall. Ive had them trip while plugging in a TV. Ive had them trip with the wrong neutrals attached. If all they are going to do is trip when the electrons go somewhere else that sounds like a GFCI to me. A very special type of GFCI. One you cant use in a bathroom or pool or laundry room. Could it be that these new fangled AFCI's are really GFCI's breakers that didn't meet the 5 mA threshold? Rejects from the GFCI line relabled to be AFCI's?

 

[e57]

The customer said she would pound on the cover of the panel till the lights came on in her bedroom. This worked for a while then I got the call.

I suppose a number of items are kept operational in the same "Fonzie" method? - Car - computer, juke box....

 

[ELA]

Isn't a loose connection a series of micro-arcs? The so called "glowing connection" which I've read that a AFCI won't detect.

wptski,

I am not sure what defines a micro-arc. Certainly if it is less than 5 amps then it would not be detected.
I would like to read what it was that you have read to learn more. Do you have a link?

 

[jxofaltrds]

It may be a new installation BUT look at these 'letters' :CN, DN, EN, FN, GN, HN, or JN


http://www.us.squared.com/us/squared/corporate_info.nsf/unid/9CB09A222974952E85256F19005EAE4F/$file/afcirecallFrameset.htm

CPSC, Schneider Electric North American Division Announce Recall of AFCIs
WASHINGTON, D.C. - The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission announces the following recall in voluntary cooperation with the firms below. Consumers should stop using recalled products immediately unless otherwise instructed.

Name of product: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI)

Units: About 700,000

Manufacturer: Schneider Electric North American Division, of Palatine, Ill.

Hazard: An AFCI is an electrical circuit protection device (circuit breaker) that detects electrical arcs from cracked, broken or damaged electrical insulation and shuts off power to the circuit before the arcing leads to a fire. An electronic component failure inside the AFCIs can cause the devices to not detect an electrical arc. Although the AFCIs will function as regular circuit breakers, they may not detect an arc fault, posing a safety risk to consumers. Clarifying Statement

Incidents/Injuries: Schneider Electric is investigating one reported fire during a new home construction that may be related to this problem. No injuries have been reported.

Description: The recalled Square D QO? and Homeline? Arc Fault Interrupter circuit breakers are used with 15- and 20-amp branch circuits. They are required to be installed in bedroom circuits in accordance with the 2002 National Electrical Code. The recalled units were manufactured after March 1, 2004, and have a blue test button. The AFCI circuit breakers have one of the following date codes ? CN, DN, EN, FN, GN, HN, or JN ? stamped in red on the breaker label located just above the wiring terminal. The recalled units also have one of the following catalog numbers printed on a label on the front of the breaker: QO115AFI, QO115AFIC, QO120AFI, QO120AFIC, QOB115AFI, QOB120AFI, HOM115AFI, HOM115AFIC, HOM120AFI, HOM120AFIC, QO115VHAFI, QO120VHAFI, QOB115VHAFI, or QOB120VHAFI.

Sold at: Electrical distributors and retailers sold the AFCIs between March 2004 and September 2004 for between $30 and $130.

Manufactured in: Mexico

Remedy: Installed AFCIs will be replaced free of charge through electrical contractors. Consumers can return uninstalled AFCIs to the retailers or distributor from whom the unit was purchased for a free replacement unit.

Consumer Contact: Consumer should call Schneider Electric toll-free at (877) 202-9046 between 7:30 a.m. and 5 p.m. ET Monday through Friday or log on to the company?s Website at www.us.squared.com/recallafci

 

[Volta]

...Remedy: Installed AFCIs will be replaced free of charge through electrical contractors...

Suppose SQD is paying for the labor?

 

[GUNNING]

I dont mind paying for the labor, its cheaper then the house.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Suppose SQD is paying for the labor?

This is just pp 5&6.
"ATTACHMENT 2

Recommended Procedure For Recovering Installed AFI Circuit Breakers


1. Check your inventory. To determine if you have product(s) affected by this Product Safety Notice, refer to Attachment 1. Product(s) identified should be returned to your local Square D distributor. Credit will be issued by the distributor for returned products affected by this Notice.

2. Call the Square D hotline at 1-877-202-9046. Our customer service representatives are available 7:30 AM to 5:00 PM EST to answer any questions you may have regarding the recovery of installed circuit breakers. In addition, they will need to approve your local labor rate for performing this work.

Note: Prior to attempting to recover installed AFI circuit breakers affected by this recall, be sure to secure an initial quantity of Square D AFI Circuit Breakers.

3. Schedule an appointment with a homeowner.
As noted above, we have many processes underway to attempt to recover as many of these affected circuit breakers as possible. You may be contacted by a local builder or by area homeowners or you may want to contact owners of homes where you have installed affected circuit breakers. Either way, please make sure you have secured an adequate number of AFI circuit breakers before scheduling an appointment with a homeowner. If you are planning to contact homeowners directly, please consider checking with your local homebuilder representative first, as some home builder organizations want to be involved in this process.

4. Inspect all installed AFI circuit breakers in the residence.
Please review Attachment # 1 for additional information on affected date codes and how to identify the date code on the circuit breaker. Replace any arc fault circuit breakers with the affected date code.

5. Return affected AFI circuit breakers to your authorized Square D distributor.
These products will be returned using the standard Return Materials Authorization (RMA) process. Your distributor will issue you a product credit for all returned circuit breakers.

6. Submit your labor invoices in the enclosed postage-paid reply envelope.
Please be sure to complete and return the enclosed form. Also, each invoice should contain the complete address of home(s) inspected, the number of arc fault circuit breakers replaced and the name and location of the distributor who accepted the returned arc fault circuit breakers. Please allow approximately XX-XX weeks for payment."



I have this in a word doc.

 

[wptski]

wptski,

I am not sure what defines a micro-arc. Certainly if it is less than 5 amps then it would not be detected.
I would like to read what it was that you have read to learn more. Do you have a link?

I don't have a link but just Google "glowing connections" and I'm sure that you'll find what I read.

 

[wptski]

The newer combination type AFCIs are supposed to detect a series arc. The detection level is greater than 5 amps for a series arc. So if the load was less than 5 amps it would not be required to trip.
If the load was greater than 5 amps one would expect it to detect and trip. I suppose it is possible for the connection to be loose enough to cause heating but not actually satisfying the arc signature requirement?

Read up on those "glowing connections". They can start with at some very low current draw. UL 1699 states that a AFCI can't detect a "glowing connection".

 

[ELA]

Bill,
I was familair with glowing connections and the fact that they may not reach the 5 Amp level or may not actually be arcing and thus not be detected by an AFCI.

I was curious about your mention of micro-arcs. I had not ever read what that meant in terms of a current level.

I did a search on glowing connections + micro arc and found some of what you might have read.
What I was unable to find is a clear definition of what current level might define a micro arc.

When someone asks why an AFCI might not have detected an arc it is important to have some actual data in order to answer that question. Terms such as micro arc do not mean much unless they are defined in terms of a current level and other parameters.

To be specific in order to answer whether or not an AFCI should detect an arc you need to have the following data from this earlier post:

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showpost.php?p=1016786&postcount=22

That post spoke to a parallel arc. For the series arc the current level only needs to be greater than 5 amps. Because they are trying to sense a lower current level when detecting a series arc they rely more heavily on the high frequency content being intermittent in nature. You can imagine how tough it might be to distinquish between an normally loaded circuit and an arc when the 60 hz level required is only 5 amps.

 

[Craziekirb]

AFCI problem tripping

AFCI problem tripping

I recieved a call for a tripping afci Murray combo breaker. I checked all the outlets for loose connections. After trying to replace to a Square D, I confimed it tripped with the Square q combo too. By process of elimination it turned out when ever the customers Sony playstation was plugged in , it would trip.
I wonder what in the Sony Playstation cause it to trip?

 

[jmellc]

I recieved a call for a tripping afci Murray combo breaker. I checked all the outlets for loose connections. After trying to replace to a Square D, I confimed it tripped with the Square q combo too. By process of elimination it turned out when ever the customers Sony playstation was plugged in , it would trip.
I wonder what in the Sony Playstation cause it to trip?

I had a similar happening about 3 years ago. Someone had a bed with a small sound system built into the headboard. I checked room by room until nailing it down to the a/v unit. Customer said he would stop using it. Don't know if something was wrong with the unit or breaker just didn't like the way it drew current. A new breaker did same thing.

I think AFI's have lilttle true benefit. Only runs up costs.

 

[stevenje]

Manufactured in: Mexico

I sure wish we could get some of these jobs back in the states.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

Seems like a "slow glow" arc like that would trip....the problem will get solved when there is a failure and fire, and a lawsuit.