AFCI for dwelling unit bedrooms & other rooms ???

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Well you have got to know the answer to your situation.
We really can't see the actual room & location of the receptacles. But I'll side with any EC, against any Inspector, any day. I got your back covered.

Your choices are..
1) fight it & show him you can beat him.
2) put in the AFCI & meet him there for the final. Have your tools on & another breaker in your hand, and as soon as he signs off, put it back. And tell him what will happen as soon as he leaves.
3) Leave it as is.

I think everyone knows, I'd take Option #2. And call it a day
 
mjc said:
...The inspector did not approve a final inspection, he's saying that the laundry circuit (which has nothing to do with the bedroom) needs to be AFCI protected because "There is no physical door on the laundry area"...
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Maybe you need another approach. Have you considered telling him that the whole thing is a laundry room? After all, "there's no physical door...." :)
 
I'd simply ask the building department if a door is required to define an area as a room. I'll bet it ain't!
 
Thinking choice 2 posted by 77401 is the way to go and call it a day. Don't really feel I'm breaking a code because theres no code to be broken just an rediculus opinion.

On the other hand since theres no CODE to be cited except 90.4 , what do inspection departments do if I choose to get paid and move on ?

Mike
 
The rules in my state are amended to say all habitable rooms shall have arc fault protection on branch ckts...last year it said receptacle ckts...so now "all branch ckts. even includes the lighting:mad: Pretty sure the laundry is not considered a habitable room, like living rooms, dens, etc, but I agree with anyone who said it shares the space w/ the bed room in this case.
 
LarryFine said:
I'd simply ask the building department if a door is required to define an area as a room. I'll bet it ain't!
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I'll concur: How can a door make any difference in this discussion? I frequently have doors open and then it is just like not having a door. Separate areas are separate areas. Unfortumately, I am not always sure how to determine which area is which.

If you enter a bedroom through a doorway, and on opposite end of bedroom there is an hall with closet on one side and vanity on other side. At the far end is another door to the bathroom. Do closet and vanity need AFCI protection? If they do you are saying that the vanity plug can be 15A circuit as opposed to 20A if it is in bathroom area. In that case (assuming this was supposed to be a 1 bath home) you wouldn't have a habitable dwelling. I mean you do need a bathroom to have a dwelling unit.
 
77401 said:
But I'll side with any EC, against any Inspector, any day.
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Thats a pretty bold statement. How about if the inspector is also an electrical contractor?

I think it's pretty clear that the inspector in this case has made a wrong call and I am not tring to defend it.

I agree that you have but a few choices.
1. To fight the call, buy going to the next step in the appeals process.
2. Just doing what the inspector wants, getting paid and moving on.

It's up to you to decide if the fight is worth it.

Chris
 
ceknight said:
Maybe you need another approach. Have you considered telling him that the whole thing is a laundry room? After all, "there's no physical door...." :)
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This is an excellent suggestion. :D

I've certainly wired some large laundry rooms and some tiny bedrooms in my day. If there is enough space in the laundry to put in a bed . . . then, What? Just because I might roll in the folding bed for my brother-in-law because the laundry area is spacious enough to shoehorn him in there, that might does not define the laundry as a bed.

Well, we're not wiring for what might happen, "if", and "then".

We're wiring off plans that the Zoning and Inspection departments have approved (at least in my geographical area). The designations on the approved plans are what the areas of the dwelling are.
 
Need to let everyone on this thread know what has come about in the last 15 days.... I asked to speak to the person in charge of the city building department. After telling him about the situation and how the electrical inspector is saying that the laundry room needs to be afci protected because there is no physical door between it and a bedroom. I wanted to know where it says that an afci is required in this type of situation. He said he spoke to the inspector (who has an attitude that 'HE' is the chief electrical inspector and what he says goes) and this is what he was taught in seminars therefore he is correct. The Building Dept. would have this inspector 'WRITE' a violation so that its clear to all.
I replied that a written violation would not be enough I was looking for a code that tells me and thousands of other electricians that this needs to happen. At that point this building inspector says he will get back to me.

After 3 days I finally contact him and he tells me that for a mere $35.00 I should comply with the violation and eveyone will be happy including the GC because he cant get a final approval and get paid until occupancy permit is approved.
He also said that I could file an appeal about the so called violation but the next available opening on the schedule in Lansing , Mich. is October of 2006.

This was a threat in my opinion the GC is complaining that he cant get paid and the city knows it. They know there is no such written requirement but they can make rules as needed. My credibility is going (if not gone) right down the toilet with the GC and I'll probably never work for the GC again.
Sorry to vent, but what do we do ? (Hey inspectors out there please reply)

I'll keep us updated , thanks in advance Mike
 
WTF are you picking this battle?
For the amount of time & effort you have spent, you could have been done with this a long time ago. We all know you are right, but, its not worth it.
Let it go already.
I can only imagine the sleep you've lost over this.

Or.. put in the breaker, file the appeal & be ready to aggressively, cross examine the inspector like an attorney would.
 
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77401 said:
WTF are you picking this battle?
For the amount of time & effort you have spent, you could have been done with this a long time ago. We all know you are right, but, its not worth it.
Let it go already.
I can only imagine the sleep you've lost over this.

Or.. put in the breaker, file the appeal & be ready to aggressively, cross examine the inspector like an attorney would.
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Ok if you insist, Yes I could of been done with this long ago, but I choose to make this a battle in order to prove a point.
Electrical codes are made and followed for a purpose. When were they going to tell us about this change ?
Thousands of us spend our time and effort learning and using the NEC as a guide if thats the case why even have an NEC or get a permit. Thats where I'm at with this so called violation, Protecting our Intrests thru the use of the NEC.
 
mjc said:
Ok if you insist, Yes I could of been done with this long ago, but I choose to make this a battle in order to prove a point.
Electrical codes are made and followed for a purpose. When were they going to tell us about this change ?
Thousands of us spend our time and effort learning and using the NEC as a guide if thats the case why even have an NEC or get a permit. Thats where I'm at with this so called violation, Protecting our Intrests thru the use of the NEC.
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Keep one thing in mind.You may win this battle but lose the war
 
mjc I'm at a lose. Does your city require a set of approved plans for a job or do they just wing it. If the plans say it is a laundry room then that is what it is door or no door. I disagree with this put it in or take it out per the inspector then put it in or take it out after he leaves. Which job do you think this will come back to bite you? It may take awhile but that habit will cause you nothing but grief. If you fight for what you believe to be right at least you can have a little piece of mind that you stood on your own two feet.
IMO you are doing it right.

Andrew
 
MJ
I'm all over fighting the system, but at some point I'll even wait for another battle. Especially when a GC or Homeowner are the collateral damage to my War.
Besides, AFCI or Laundry or NOT. After its all finaled & paid for, who Free king cares?
There will be more jobs & more Inspectors to fight.
G LUCK
 
andrew said:
mjc I'm at a lose. Does your city require a set of approved plans for a job or do they just wing it. If the plans say it is a laundry room then that is what it is door or no door.

Andrew
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Thats a Seems to have been a waste of everyones time also. YES the city required a set of plans Stamped and approved them without an AFCI in this area. Mike
 
Mike, you are doing the right thing. I can only hope that the cost of doing the right thing does not prove to be too high. I'm sure you realize that if you were to give in to the ?it?s just $35? temptation, then you will lose the next $500 battle as well.

Just a thought, however. What does the GC think about this situation? Any chance of getting the GC to help you put pressure on the Inspector?
 
Here is another thought. But do not blame me - - - - no, I mean do not give me the credit. It was my evil twin who made me write this. :)

Go back to the Inspector, and insist on getting a written and signed document that declares this to be a code violation, and that cites the NEC (or other) article. But let the Inspector know that:

1. You know that this document will be a public record,

2. You know that you are free to publish it on the Internet.

3. You intend to scan a copy, and post it on this Forum.

4. As a result, the Inspector?s name and signature will be seen by 26,000 electricians, contractors, inspectors, and engineers, and all of them will be able to look at the code article cited by the Inspector, and all will be able to judge for themselves whether the Inspector has made an error.
 
charlie b said:
Here is another thought. But do not blame me - - - - no, I mean do not give me the credit. It was my evil twin who made me write this. :)

Go back to the Inspector, and insist on getting a written and signed document that declares this to be a code violation, and that cites the NEC (or other) article. But let the Inspector know that:

1. You know that this document will be a public record,

2. You know that you are free to publish it on the Internet.

3. You intend to scan a copy, and post it on this Forum.

4. As a result, the Inspector?s name and signature will be seen by 26,000 electricians, contractors, inspectors, and engineers, and all of them will be able to look at the code article cited by the Inspector, and all will be able to judge for themselves whether the Inspector has made an error.
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100% with you but lets add that after we all view it and pick it apart we will print it and send a copy to his cheaf and the county atourney.
 
charlie b said:
Here is another thought. But do not blame me - - - - no, I mean do not give me the credit. It was my evil twin who made me write this. :)

Go back to the Inspector, and insist on getting a written and signed document that declares this to be a code violation, and that cites the NEC (or other) article. But let the Inspector know that:

1. You know that this document will be a public record,

2. You know that you are free to publish it on the Internet.

3. You intend to scan a copy, and post it on this Forum.

4. As a result, the Inspector?s name and signature will be seen by 26,000 electricians, contractors, inspectors, and engineers, and all of them will be able to look at the code article cited by the Inspector, and all will be able to judge for themselves whether the Inspector has made an error.
Click to expand...

YEA RIGHT! LMFAO
You'd have to be a real idiot to ask that & to think any inspector would comply with these demands. AHJ rules and they know it.
 
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