LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Yes, but only as far as we let them. They are still public officials.77401 said:
AFCI for dwelling unit bedrooms & other rooms ???
- Thread starter mjc
- Start date
- Status
77401
Banned
Absolutely not! actually I have assisted in getting 2 Inspectors fired, Long story, but they needed written complaints for the file & most othere EC were afraid to write them, I wasn't.roger said:
But based on this thread, with what weve been given, I would be fighting it unless the GC & Homeowner were backing me. It doesnt look like there is any support here.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Here's how I look at it: It's as illegal to fail something improperly as it is to pass something improperly. The inspector should be held to the same standard in both instances.
Hi Guys , Just got off the phone with the city electrical inspector. Explained that my GC is has been calling the city because he cannot get paid and needs to resolve this issue (that's not a code or on his plan) ASAP.
I then asked him if he would accept a blank plate over an outlet instead of an AFCI on the entire laundry circuit. (FYI -- there two duplex recepts in this laundry area one behind the wash machine and the other on the wall in front of the washer) He accepted a blank on the outlet in front of the washer as corrective action as long as there was another recept with-in the 12 foot wall space (which there is).
END OF STORY ! for now, every-one is happy - gets paid - and moves on except the Electrical contractor. I'll visit this again at the state level in about three months because the NEC is what it is.
OH! Charlie b --- My plan 'B' was what you sugested about going public and the forum with 26,000 eyes and ears but it never got that far. Thanks All
I then asked him if he would accept a blank plate over an outlet instead of an AFCI on the entire laundry circuit. (FYI -- there two duplex recepts in this laundry area one behind the wash machine and the other on the wall in front of the washer) He accepted a blank on the outlet in front of the washer as corrective action as long as there was another recept with-in the 12 foot wall space (which there is).
END OF STORY ! for now, every-one is happy - gets paid - and moves on except the Electrical contractor. I'll visit this again at the state level in about three months because the NEC is what it is.
OH! Charlie b --- My plan 'B' was what you sugested about going public and the forum with 26,000 eyes and ears but it never got that far. Thanks All
Hi,
Installed 20a AFCI on the Laundry circuit as a curtisy so the GC could get paid and the make the city of Livonia happy. Just spoke to the Chief Elec Insp in the electrical division of Michigan. He says there is no such requirement in the Mich. Residential Code, The local municipalities have an AHJ to interpet the rules but not make them, they should have informed me VIA the stamped building plans about this requirement. (Therefore I did not have to comply.)
He requested that I file an appeal with the state about this action and with a code making panel of the state. This is somethig he is unaware of and requested that I contact him in the near future about the progress of the Situation.
OH! Charlie b , Thanks--
Had to go to plan 'B' of our conversation, Spoke to the head of the building department in Livoina, Mich. NO satisfaction, came about through that call. So I proceeded to let him know that I would be in touch with the state and if an error has occurred on my part I'll contact him but if not I intend to go public with names involved, posting on the internet,this web site with 26,000 members, the City of Livonia Observer (local paper) ,the IAEI Forum, and the local NECA chapter.
I'll keep this forum in the loop, to let all know of future results.
Thanks guys, may have lost the battle but a victory on the war is promising.
Mike
Installed 20a AFCI on the Laundry circuit as a curtisy so the GC could get paid and the make the city of Livonia happy. Just spoke to the Chief Elec Insp in the electrical division of Michigan. He says there is no such requirement in the Mich. Residential Code, The local municipalities have an AHJ to interpet the rules but not make them, they should have informed me VIA the stamped building plans about this requirement. (Therefore I did not have to comply.)
He requested that I file an appeal with the state about this action and with a code making panel of the state. This is somethig he is unaware of and requested that I contact him in the near future about the progress of the Situation.
OH! Charlie b , Thanks--
Had to go to plan 'B' of our conversation, Spoke to the head of the building department in Livoina, Mich. NO satisfaction, came about through that call. So I proceeded to let him know that I would be in touch with the state and if an error has occurred on my part I'll contact him but if not I intend to go public with names involved, posting on the internet,this web site with 26,000 members, the City of Livonia Observer (local paper) ,the IAEI Forum, and the local NECA chapter.
I'll keep this forum in the loop, to let all know of future results.
Thanks guys, may have lost the battle but a victory on the war is promising.
Mike
77401
Banned
Now your a trouble maker & will be flagged in the future as such.
beware of further retrobutions from the Inspectors, drive by shootings, pipe bombs in the mail box from inspectors around the country (whoops that could get scaned by the internet police scanners) Just kidding!
beware of further retrobutions from the Inspectors, drive by shootings, pipe bombs in the mail box from inspectors around the country (whoops that could get scaned by the internet police scanners) Just kidding!
I am somewhat new to this forum, but have been around a few months ready many threads and have a concern about this one.
I understand the argument and agree with most, that the area is not a bedroom, but;
Why not just install the AFCI?
I am sure we can all agree that it is safer to have an AFCI then to not.
The cost is small and can easily be obsorbed by the homeowner.
The inspector is asking for something that is "at the least" arguable, and he does have more of a say then the EC. You guys live by the code, and I respect that, but a senior member is advocating removing the breaker after the inspector leaves. Isn't that something a DIY would do? No disrespect intended. I also have not herd anything mentioned about fire. The door of a room, I think, does act as a firestop to some degree does it not? So if your entire house was a bedroom without doors woulden't it be prudent to have all circuits protected from a fire standpoint? (leaving the code on the side for a molment).
Anyway did not mean to ruffle any feathers, I understand that this is a passsionate argument.
ed
I understand the argument and agree with most, that the area is not a bedroom, but;
Why not just install the AFCI?
I am sure we can all agree that it is safer to have an AFCI then to not.
The cost is small and can easily be obsorbed by the homeowner.
The inspector is asking for something that is "at the least" arguable, and he does have more of a say then the EC. You guys live by the code, and I respect that, but a senior member is advocating removing the breaker after the inspector leaves. Isn't that something a DIY would do? No disrespect intended. I also have not herd anything mentioned about fire. The door of a room, I think, does act as a firestop to some degree does it not? So if your entire house was a bedroom without doors woulden't it be prudent to have all circuits protected from a fire standpoint? (leaving the code on the side for a molment).
Anyway did not mean to ruffle any feathers, I understand that this is a passsionate argument.
ed
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
The documentation of the efficacy of the AFCI is less than dispassionate. Manufacturers are still stonewalling the trades on just exactly what is happening at the circuit logic level in their individual solutions to the "broad concept of AFCI". Some in the trade will argue that most of the characteristics of the AFCI can be duplicated simply by using a GFCI breaker instead.edamico11 said:
Actually, the cost, in this case, falls on the shoulders of the electrical contractor. 2005 NEC 210.12(B) does not lead one to bid a job including AFCI protection of the circuits inside a Laundry Area. When the AHJ writes his/her own code, announcing it in the final inspection, that, quite simply, is changing the rules in the middle of the game.edamico11 said:
Well, as was just posted above, that is what happened in order to complete the project. However, the discussion of the NEC interpretation can still be carried further. In a Civil Society we live by a Rule Of Law. . .The NEC is enforceable law in most jurisdictions. That's the NEC as written, not the opinion of the AHJ. As human interpreters of the written word, Contractor and AHJ may reasonably disagree and either side may seek the review and arbitration of higher authority.edamico11 said:
The National Association of State Fire Marshalls, for a while, pushed hard for the AFCI by, in part, claiming the AFCI was a fire detector. I personally find this to be off subject. The UL standards the AFCI has to meet, in effect, limits the thermal energy released in certain, but not all, electrical events, but in no way describes the AFCI having any awareness of, or response to, fire.edamico11 said:
And lastly, welcome to the fray. . .
I certainly appreciate the comments. I do not think inspectors should make up the rules of game half-way, especially when it could impact someone's livelihood. But you have admitted that the results of the AFCI at least arguable. So in this case, install it,, err on the side of saftey and argue it to a higher authority later. You bring up some fantastic facts and I appreciate the responce. Even though it was written I do not feel that anyone on this site would replace breakers after the inspector leaves, just be real pissed about it...
Thanks for the welcome, being an engineer I feel that I am always in the fray..
Thanks for the welcome, being an engineer I feel that I am always in the fray..
bkludecke
Senior Member
- Location
- Big Bear Lake, CA
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
It ain't about safety, it ain't about the NEC and it ain't about who's right or wrong. It's about authority and the abuse of it. It's about egos and pride and not backing down. The question really is; Is this the hill you want to die on?. It may be and I aplaude you (and the inspector) if you both decide to "take it to the matt".
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