AFCI-Generator panel

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electricmanscott

electricmanscott

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Location
Boston, MA
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Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
I've got a customer that wants a manual generator setup. In the past I have installed a 6 or 10 circuit prewired type which connects to the existng loadcenter.

With the current AFCI requirements one would think that this might not be allowable anymore as the AFCI will not be present under generator power. What do you guys think?
 
electricmanscott said:
I've got a customer that wants a manual generator setup. In the past I have installed a 6 or 10 circuit prewired type which connects to the existng loadcenter.

With the current AFCI requirements one would think that this might not be allowable anymore as the AFCI will not be present under generator power. What do you guys think?
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I think that you are correct. At least you would not be able to power AFCI protected circuits. You could still do "standard" circuits.
 
Interesting. I guess the only solution now is to use a regular subpanel and transfer switch. There goes all of Gen Tran's business.
 
electricalperson said:
why wont the afci's work with a generator panel?
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Take a gander at the install manual. The panel breaker is bypassed during generator operation. Unless an AFCI breaker is made for this transfer switch, you can't (legally) use it.
 
Yes this is an interesting point. Under generator power there will not be AFCI protection because the branch breakers in the panel are not used under generator power. IMO it is quite nitpicky and not worth worrying about, but I may be biased because of my distain for AFCI's ;)
 
I guess if i am installing it in conjunction with an existing service that has no AFCi's anyway it won't matter.

Just thought of this today and was looking at some options.

It may have actually been the GenTran site that mentions their new panels allow for use with standard circuit breakers that allow for afci protection where required. So I guess I am not the first to think of this.
 
i thought we were talking about the prewired generator panels that are similar to subpanels like the ones guardian makes. i didnt know this was about gen tran switches.

if its a gen tran switch were talking about an afci wont work unless they can make those little breakers on the side arc fault somehow. i dont like gen tran's anyway :D
 
JohnJ0906 said:
Take a gander at the install manual. The panel breaker is bypassed during generator operation. Unless an AFCI breaker is made for this transfer switch, you can't (legally) use it.
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didnt know it was gen tran. guardians panels can take siemans arc fault breakers.
 
electricalperson said:
didnt know it was gen tran. guardians panels can take siemans arc fault breakers.
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That's what we usually use. :smile:

I've installed a grand total of 1 Gentran. Actually, a good economic choice for that customer. (No AFCIs for that matter either)
 
the cheapest generator setup ive done had a 30 amp 2 pole breaker in the panel and a 125/250v 30a twist lock outside and an interlock on the main breaker with the 30 amp breaker
 
Yes Nitpicky. I am very meticulous with doing things per code. I know you are not saying it is a safety issue to not have a circuit AFCI protected for a few hours per year, just a metter of theorectical code, however I would say that it is not a violation to install a gen-tran in this manner. (Key word: install)
 
I would add that is is usually not possible to have a code compliant and safe (at the same time) generator installation with consumer generators unless it is made a SDS, which makes gen-trans and interlocks not an option. Often the generator N-G bond is not removable, and even if it is, that leaves the generator without ground fault protection when it is not used to power the premis wiring system. I usually opt for safe rather than NEC compliant. Ok I am ready to get beat up on this one....
 
Last Generac I installed with transfer panel that had to swap out a few breakers to AFCI. We are not on 08 nec yet so it was just for the bedrooms. So that was no problem.
 
We quit selling and installing pre-wired TSs, auto or manual. More trouble than they are worth, IMO. Build our own sub-panel and reloacte desired circuits.
 
I agree it would be 'nit picky' to do that. As someone pointed out, might be better to just use the interlock type transfer. that way the afci will always be there.
 
I have a question i know it may flare up but how well the AFCI do work on generator power ??

{ keep in your mind i know some generators crank out " dirty " power it may affect the AFCI electronic gimzo }

If you have some idea can ya pass us the tip so we can prepared for it.

the reason why i ask because i am still on 05 code sans AFCI we may go with AFCI with new code but still waiting to see if they will anounce it in print.

Merci, Marc
 
electrofelon said:
I am very meticulous with doing things per code. I know you are not saying it is a safety issue to not have a circuit AFCI protected for a few hours per year,
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No I am not saying that.

I am saying that if AFCIs work it is a safety issue not to have them a few hours per year.

What your suggesting would be the same as removing overcurrent protection for a few hours a year.


electrofelon said:
I would add that is is usually not possible to have a code compliant and safe (at the same time) generator installation with consumer generators unless it is made a SDS, which makes gen-trans and interlocks not an option. Often the generator N-G bond is not removable, and even if it is, that leaves the generator without ground fault protection when it is not used to power the premis wiring system. I usually opt for safe rather than NEC compliant. Ok I am ready to get beat up on this one....
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It seems like a professional could find a way to accomplish both code compliance and safety.

But maybe I expect to much.
 
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frenchelectrican said:
I have a question i know it may flare up but how well the AFCI do work on generator power ??

Merci, Marc
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I have a desert cabin powered by a generac 5500w. I have two Sq D homline AFCI and they are fine. No nusiance tripping. Loaded to 600w.
 
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