AFCI/GFCI on all breakers

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rubenhak

Member
Location
Danville, CA
Occupation
SW Engineer
Hi folks, I'm upgrading the sub-panel. Going with Leviton. I know there is a risk they will stop producing breakers, but that's the risk I am willing to take. Don't want to compare more reputable breaker manufacturers, like SqD, etc here.

I have a different question. Is there any downside putting AFCI/GFCI breakers on all 15A or 20A lines? Got 2-pole 40A and 50A breakers for EV charger, range and HVAC, can I use GFCI breakers on those?

Also, is there any disadvantage using hydraulic vs thermal breakers? I'm nowhere close to extreme weather, just wanted more precise breakers. Which breakers trip quicker, thermal or hydraulic?

The extra cost I'm willing to take, just want to make sure that they do not cause additional troubles.

Thank you!
 
rubenhak said:
Also, is there any disadvantage using hydraulic vs thermal breakers? I'm nowhere close to extreme weather, just wanted more precise breakers. Which breakers trip quicker, thermal or hydraulic?
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In my opinion it doesn't matter.
Most of the problems I have ever been associated with involve thermal magnetic breakers opening before the customer wanted them to.
The NEC has such a large safety margin built into its ampacity selection that Listed break speed is irrelevant.

Hydraulic breakers may have use in critical applications like submarines and airplanes, but that is because size is usually a critcal consideration and their conductors are not sized per the NEC.
 
I personally would never use an AFCI in my house at all, let alone where they are not required. I’m not advising you to violate your local code, but AFCI is a scam and snake oil.

GFCI on the other hand, is an old and proven technology that actually saves lives. However, they don’t play well with an ever increasing variety of modern appliances. You may find yourself with nuisance tripping of microwaves, EV chargers, dryers, etc, or come home to a fridge full of spoiled food.
 
Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:
GFCI on the other hand, is an old and proven technology that actually saves lives. However, they don’t play well with an ever increasing variety of modern appliances. You may find yourself with nuisance tripping of microwaves, EV chargers, dryers, etc, or come home to a fridge full of spoiled food.
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GFCIs work but they have their place. The manufacturers would love having the NEC make you use them on every circuit and are pushing in that direction. But they have an ulterior motive.

No way would I use a "boutique" panel like that Leviton. Another techi toy.

-Hal
 
hbiss said:
GFCIs work but they have their place. The manufacturers would love having the NEC make you use them on every circuit and are pushing in that direction. But they have an ulterior motive.

-Hal
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I’d be fine with going back to the 1996 NEC. Maybe add a couple articles for some new technologies like EV chargers, or ESS.
 
@Seven-Delta-FortyOne

I would rather go back to the 1984, everything was good back then. I love this forum but back then we didn't need a forum with 1000s of members trying to figure out what the NEC is trying to say. Way too complicated.

The proof is that the 1000s of members sometimes can't come to a consensus on what the code is trying to say.

If they can't write the code so that the average electrician can figure things out what the hell are they doing?
 
"Apart from possibility of nuisance tripping and additional cost is there any other disadvantage? Is the AFCI or GFCI or both of them susceptible to nuisance tripping?"

Yes. $$$$$$
 
rubenhak said:
AFCI or GFCI or both of them susceptible to nuisance tripping?
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Lets call it non intended tripping. Users call any tripping a nuisance even if they don't understand what it may be protecting them from.

AFCI/GFCI have problems with high speed switching power supplies which is becoming common in a lot of things with that high speed switching comes high frequencies which increases capacitive leakage which will lead to tripping these devices unintentionally by design. They for a long time have also been subject to trip on inductive kickback situations, even from a surge on incoming utility conductors during line switching events or during lightning storms even though there was no strike in the immediate vicinity. Those last two are the ones that often leave you with a tripped GFCI and a warm freezer full of food that you never noticed wasn't working though nothing appears to be wrong with anything after you reset it.

I don't know the right solution as I have also seen compromised EGC on these freezers in garages or basements and are shocking people if no GFCI or tripping if there is a GFCI because the appliance does have a fault - and GFCI is a good idea for that reason to protect them, fix the fault and they are fine again.
 
rubenhak said:
@kwired, my garage already has GFCI outlets and garage fridges are on those outlets. How different would be a GFCI outlet I have now vs a GFCI breaker?
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IDK. There are GFCI receptacles out there that tend to be more prone to undesired trips than others. I can't tell you anything about the Levition panelboard versions, but as a general rule I have seen less so called nuisance tripping from GFCI breakers than from GFCI receptacles. Not sure why though. They operate on same basic concepts but apparently do have some differences as well. That said I have also seen GFCI breakers that no longer trip when you press test button. Not so much more often but if you consider how many more GFCI receptacles are typically out there I'd say there is a higher percentage of breakers that fail yet still will pass power through than there is receptacles, especially after they started making the receptacles a little more fail safe- as in won't reset if protection is not working.
 
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