homecheck3
Member
Is it appropriate to wire bathroom and kitchen circuits through panel AFCI's instead of GFCI's?
AFCI in kitchens and baths?
- Thread starter homecheck3
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Re: AFCI in kitchens and baths?
AFCI protection is not required for kitchen or bathroom circuits. You could run the light circuits for the kitchen and bathroom. There is no code that would prevent you from doing that, but the kitchen and bathroom receptacles require GFCI protection by code.
AFCI protection is not required for kitchen or bathroom circuits. You could run the light circuits for the kitchen and bathroom. There is no code that would prevent you from doing that, but the kitchen and bathroom receptacles require GFCI protection by code.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: AFCI in kitchens and baths?
Roger,
We have be careful with the use of the term "combo" or combination unit. In this forum and in the field that term is taken to mean a dual function and listed device. A device that dual listed for use as both an AFCI and GFCI. However in the UL listings a "combination" device is an AFCI that provides both branch circuit and outlet protection. At this time that are no "combination" devices on the market, but one manufacturer has received a listing for a combination device and it should be on the market sometime this year. There are "dual listed" AFCI/GFCI devices on the market at this time. This is just another case where the field or common use term does not match up with the code or UL usage of the same term.
Don
Roger,
We have be careful with the use of the term "combo" or combination unit. In this forum and in the field that term is taken to mean a dual function and listed device. A device that dual listed for use as both an AFCI and GFCI. However in the UL listings a "combination" device is an AFCI that provides both branch circuit and outlet protection. At this time that are no "combination" devices on the market, but one manufacturer has received a listing for a combination device and it should be on the market sometime this year. There are "dual listed" AFCI/GFCI devices on the market at this time. This is just another case where the field or common use term does not match up with the code or UL usage of the same term.
Don
Re: AFCI in kitchens and baths?
Hello Don, you are right, as a matter of fact, isn't there a proposal that has been accepted that will specify "combination AFCI devices" (as you point out, not to be confused with the AFCI/GFCI breaker) in place of a branch circuit breaker type AFCI or some wording to that effect?
Roger
[ January 01, 2004, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
Hello Don, you are right, as a matter of fact, isn't there a proposal that has been accepted that will specify "combination AFCI devices" (as you point out, not to be confused with the AFCI/GFCI breaker) in place of a branch circuit breaker type AFCI or some wording to that effect?
Roger
[ January 01, 2004, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
homecheck3
Member
Re: AFCI in kitchens and baths?
The reason for my original inquiry is that I inspected a new electrical panel in a 50 year old house. There were 6 AFCI breakers in the panel. The bedroom circuits were protected, which is appropriate, but the bathroom and kitchen counter circuits were also wired through the panel AFCI's, not GFCI's. Is this ok?
The reason for my original inquiry is that I inspected a new electrical panel in a 50 year old house. There were 6 AFCI breakers in the panel. The bedroom circuits were protected, which is appropriate, but the bathroom and kitchen counter circuits were also wired through the panel AFCI's, not GFCI's. Is this ok?
Re: AFCI in kitchens and baths?
Well, this is another story. If the owners just put these breakers in because they wanted the protection an AFCI gives them, that is fine. Being that the house is fifty years old, the code at that time didn't require either GFCI or AFCI. (they didn't exist)
If there is some local code or renovation that has taken place that would apply to the house requiring GFCI compliance, the AFCI certainly will not cover this requirement.
Roger
Well, this is another story. If the owners just put these breakers in because they wanted the protection an AFCI gives them, that is fine. Being that the house is fifty years old, the code at that time didn't require either GFCI or AFCI. (they didn't exist)
If there is some local code or renovation that has taken place that would apply to the house requiring GFCI compliance, the AFCI certainly will not cover this requirement.
Roger
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: AFCI in kitchens and baths?
While presently only required for bedroom circuits, you can use AFCI breakers on any circuit.
As for for what you have, the kitchen counter outlets will need to have GFCI receptacles installed to meet code.
While presently only required for bedroom circuits, you can use AFCI breakers on any circuit.
As for for what you have, the kitchen counter outlets will need to have GFCI receptacles installed to meet code.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: AFCI in kitchens and baths?
There we go again.
But thats good because Roger brought up a good point that I forgot.
There we go again.
But thats good because Roger brought up a good point that I forgot.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: AFCI in kitchens and baths?
Seems strange that they went overkill on afci and did not spend a few more dollars to add gfci recepticles.Would rather have seen gfci breakers for that kitchen
Seems strange that they went overkill on afci and did not spend a few more dollars to add gfci recepticles.Would rather have seen gfci breakers for that kitchen
homecheck3
Member
Re: AFCI in kitchens and baths?
I agree. The question is can it be done this way. The kitchen was renovated at the same time as the panel was replaced. I was under the impression that GFCI's needed to be installed, not AFCI's. Is this true?
I agree. The question is can it be done this way. The kitchen was renovated at the same time as the panel was replaced. I was under the impression that GFCI's needed to be installed, not AFCI's. Is this true?
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: AFCI in kitchens and baths?
The report should state that there is no gfci for the kitchen,bath .But include that it is not a violation due to it not being required at time house was built.Might point out that this could be corrected.I do feel that the customer should be informed.
The report should state that there is no gfci for the kitchen,bath .But include that it is not a violation due to it not being required at time house was built.Might point out that this could be corrected.I do feel that the customer should be informed.
homecheck3
Member
Re: AFCI in kitchens and baths?
Agreed. I did write the report to indicate that there was no GFI protection at the kitchen counters. The electrician countered that the AFCI is adequate and nothing more was needed. I disagreed, but was overruled by the seller and Realtors. That is why I posted the question on this forum. Thanks for your help. I will pass this information along.
Agreed. I did write the report to indicate that there was no GFI protection at the kitchen counters. The electrician countered that the AFCI is adequate and nothing more was needed. I disagreed, but was overruled by the seller and Realtors. That is why I posted the question on this forum. Thanks for your help. I will pass this information along.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: AFCI in kitchens and baths?
I would say you did your job by pointing out the lack of gfci.To say there is no need to have them is very wrong.Many lifes are saved with gfci.They go into every house i own,i value my family and myself.They made the sale and won't care what happens.When customers ask me if there house is safe i don't white wash it.If it has anything less than up to date wiring i tell them.Often it's not perfect but no major hazards.They are asking because they don't know.Be honest and all will be fine.
I would say you did your job by pointing out the lack of gfci.To say there is no need to have them is very wrong.Many lifes are saved with gfci.They go into every house i own,i value my family and myself.They made the sale and won't care what happens.When customers ask me if there house is safe i don't white wash it.If it has anything less than up to date wiring i tell them.Often it's not perfect but no major hazards.They are asking because they don't know.Be honest and all will be fine.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: AFCI in kitchens and baths?
Don
If the renovation of the kitchen included replacement of the receptacles, then 406.3(D)(2) requires GFCI protection for these receptacles.
Don
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: AFCI in kitchens and baths?
Good call i missed that.
Any chance the ones for the kitchen were gfci and not afci they do look a lot like each other
Good call i missed that.
Any chance the ones for the kitchen were gfci and not afci they do look a lot like each other
luke warmwater
Senior Member
Re: AFCI in kitchens and baths?
Was there an ELECTRICAL inspection done on this panel change and kitchen renovation after it was completed??
There has got to be more to this story.
Are there GFCI receptacles in a bathroom or kitchen for those circuts?
Was there any change in the kitchen circut wiring or in the bathroom receptacle wiring??
If none of those circuts were changed in any way, they might not have REQUIRED GFCI's to be installed.
Does the electrician think that the AFCI's meet the GFI requirement because of the built-in GFP circutry in an arc-fault breaker??
Contact the ELECTRICAL inspector and ask why it passed whenever you think that it shouldn't.
Was there an ELECTRICAL inspection done on this panel change and kitchen renovation after it was completed??
There has got to be more to this story.
Are there GFCI receptacles in a bathroom or kitchen for those circuts?
Was there any change in the kitchen circut wiring or in the bathroom receptacle wiring??
If none of those circuts were changed in any way, they might not have REQUIRED GFCI's to be installed.
Does the electrician think that the AFCI's meet the GFI requirement because of the built-in GFP circutry in an arc-fault breaker??
Contact the ELECTRICAL inspector and ask why it passed whenever you think that it shouldn't.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: AFCI in kitchens and baths?
Willing to bet there was no permit.Many services get upgraded without permits.Not saying its good and won't incriminate my self by saying how many i have done.Most men will go beyond code if doing it unpermitted ,just to cover there butt.
A call to building department might just get something started here.
What are chances that the EC that said there was no problem ,was the same guy that did the work!!!!
Willing to bet there was no permit.Many services get upgraded without permits.Not saying its good and won't incriminate my self by saying how many i have done.Most men will go beyond code if doing it unpermitted ,just to cover there butt.
A call to building department might just get something started here.
What are chances that the EC that said there was no problem ,was the same guy that did the work!!!!
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