AFCI in Laundry Room (2011 WI)

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Sierrasparky said:
CMP left it vague, Huh.
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Yes, vague.

Do you disagree the word 'similar ' is vague?


So how do you explain that in another post regarding State adoption of the 2014 and their amendments . South Carolina removed the word "kitchen" though left similar rooms.
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I don't know why they did that, here in MA we have about 60-70 changes to the NEC, can you explain why MA made any of these changes?

These words are deliberate. If the SC AHJ thought that it was in fact vague they need not have changed a word.
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The word similar is vague regardless of what any place chooses to do.

Please tell me how you jump from similar room to laundry.
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I don't, but the AHJ can, it is up to them.
 
iwire said:
Yes, vague.

Do you disagree the word 'similar ' is vague?




I don't know why they did that, here in MA we have about 60-70 changes to the NEC, can you explain why MA made any of these changes?



The word similar is vague regardless of what any place chooses to do.



I don't, but the AHJ can, it is up to them.
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It is my understanding that most AHJ cannot just interpret things willy nilly these days. They must have public comment and have it made into law or official policy.


I guess we just need to agree to disagree.
 
Sierrasparky said:
It is my understanding that most AHJ cannot just interpret things willy nilly these days. They must have public comment and have it made into law or official policy.
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I do not see anything 'willy nilly' in trying to interpret a vague term.

They are not interpreting a 'shall be' to a maybe. They are not interpreting a measurement like 6'-7" to 6' or anything like that.

The NFPA itself tells us similar is a vague term. The following is from the NFPA book of style.







PossibleUnenforceableandVague.jpg


And then the NEC tells us the AHJ is the party responsible for interpretation.


90.4 Enforcement. This Code is intended to be suitable
for mandatory application by governmental bodies that exercise
legal jurisdiction over electrical installations, including
signaling and communications systems, and for use by
insurance inspectors. The authority having jurisdiction for
enforcement of the Code has the responsibility for making
interpretations of the rules, for deciding on the approval of
equipment and materials, and for granting the special permission
contemplated in a number of the rules.

By special permission, the authority having jurisdiction
may waive specific requirements in this Code or permit
alternative methods where it is assured that equivalent objectives
can be achieved by establishing and maintaining
effective safety.

This Code may require new products, constructions, or
materials that may not yet be available at the time the Code
is adopted. In such event, the authority having jurisdiction
may permit the use of the products, constructions, or materials
that comply with the most recent previous edition of
this Code adopted by the jurisdiction.
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I guess we just need to agree to disagree.
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We could.

Or you could admit the AHJ gets to interrupt vague rules:D such as:

  • Subject to physical damage
  • Neat and Workman like
  • Nearest the point of entrance
  • Similar rooms
 
Sierrasparky said:
This so called interpretation is written somewhere and legally adopted?
I'd like to see the basis for this definition.
The CMP has refused to make a blanket definition of rooms or spaces and continually left rooms out of the requirements.
I hate to see other jurisdictions make such arbitrary interpretations or " because we say so" as it always filters around the country some way.

To claim that a laundry area is a " similar area or room " is incorrect and has no foundation or basis.
To claim that laundry is similar we must look at what makes it appear similar or unique. Those similarities cannot be the same things that make up a building , such as floor, walls , and ceilings. Has a door or maybe two. Including all areas and rooms would make the whole home AFCI and that has not been done YET.

So what makes a laundry room unique.
To me that is simple, it is where you clean your laundry. Maybe you store things there. Wash up, things of that nature.

You don't sleep there or prepare food.
You do not eat and entertain there.
For someone to claim it as similar has too much power.
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I agree. The only similar thing is it is under the same roof. The closest thing to it would be a half bath because this one has a sink. (The home owner was complaining to the AHJ they where tripping on the contractor doing trim work so he wants as few as possible in his house and he said to take them out after inspection.)
 
iwire said:
I do not see anything 'willy nilly' in trying to interpret a vague term.

They are not interpreting a 'shall be' to a maybe. They are not interpreting a measurement like 6'-7" to 6' or anything like that.

The NFPA itself tells us similar is a vague term. The following is from the NFPA book of style.







PossibleUnenforceableandVague.jpg


And then the NEC tells us the AHJ is the party responsible for interpretation.









We could.

Or you could admit the AHJ gets to interrupt vague rules:D such as:

  • Subject to physical damage
  • Neat and Workman like
  • Nearest the point of entrance
  • Similar rooms
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Boy o boy

Look at the heading says POSSIBLE and unenforceable.
So in my opinion you cannot add a room because you think it is similar. Either change the code or codify a local amendment or go sit in the corner.
 
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Is a kitchenette a kitchen or similar area? Is a dinette a dining room or similar area?

I would imagine it is palatable for you that the authority requires 20 amp small appliance circuits in these areas or similar areas.

But if you disagree that a small appliance circuits be installed in an area who gets to decide?

When your construction documents say Square D. such and such or equivalent , who gets to decide what is similar?
 
Sierrasparky said:
Boy o boy

Look at the heading says POSSIBLE and unenforceable.
So in my opinion you cannot add a room because you think it is similar. Either change the code or codify a local amendment or go sit in the corner.
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:D

Of course the AHJ can add a room which they determine is similar, that is why the CMP did not stop with the list and put the word similar in the code section.


And you know what, nothing you and I think matters we are not the AHJ. :D
 
iwire said:
:D

Of course the AHJ can add a room which they determine is similar, that is why the CMP did not stop with the list and put the word similar in the code section.


And you know what, nothing you and I think matters we are not the AHJ. :D
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We not so. I do not live in such a totalitarian government. Our AHJ are not allowed to make up code willy nilly. They must have a legitimate basis for their interpretation. If we then do not like it there is another procedure.
Before any model code is adopted there is a procedure. Many I know participate. Sometimes they get a change.
 
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