AFCI Issue...

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1793

1793

Senior Member
Location
Louisville, Kentucky
Occupation
Inspector
I ran across a residential panel that my customer is complaining of a 15a 120v AFCI breaker randomly tripping. When I removed the cover I noticed the only three AFCI breakers in a row. As I looked into it closer I noticed that someone had grouped all three AFCI neutral pigtails together to a single #14 neutral.

I don't know that much about AFCI's so could this be an issue?

Thanks
 
1793 said:
I ran across a residential panel that my customer is complaining of a 15a 120v AFCI breaker randomly tripping. When I removed the cover I noticed the only three AFCI breakers in a row. As I looked into it closer I noticed that someone had grouped all three AFCI neutral pigtails together to a single #14 neutral.

I don't know that much about AFCI's so could this be an issue?

Thanks
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Probably not the reason for the tripping but can have overloading of that conductor - unless it is 208/120 three phase - then it only sees unbalance current of the three lines - though technically you should have handle ties on those breakers if done that way.
 
1793 said:
I ran across a residential panel that my customer is complaining of a 15a 120v AFCI breaker randomly tripping. When I removed the cover I noticed the only three AFCI breakers in a row. As I looked into it closer I noticed that someone had grouped all three AFCI neutral pigtails together to a single #14 neutral.

I don't know that much about AFCI's so could this be an issue?

Thanks
Click to expand...

Is it tripping on arc fault or overload? regardless, each pigtail should have its own connection to the neutral buss, or if they dont reach, 3 separate pigtails.

kwired, you ever see a 3ph panel in a single or two family residence?

eta: is it really random tripping? Find out what's on that circuit and operate everything on it. Aside from the usual suspects (appliances), switches that are in the process of failing can trip them too - Decora/rocker style switches going bad could be the culprit. Wiggle them side to side in addition to on/off; I've seen a lot of failures in them that create weird, intermittent problems, like tripped AFCI breakers, and 3 ways that work, then dont (wont shut off or come on).
 
1793 said:
I ran across a residential panel that my customer is complaining of a 15a 120v AFCI breaker randomly tripping. When I removed the cover I noticed the only three AFCI breakers in a row. As I looked into it closer I noticed that someone had grouped all three AFCI neutral pigtails together to a single #14 neutral.

I don't know that much about AFCI's so could this be an issue?

Thanks
Click to expand...

I agree this is probably not what's making it randomly trip , but, it would be the first thing I would change.
I would take each pigtail to the neutral bar individually to eliminate any possibility of some type of shared interference.

JAP>
 
jap said:
I agree this is probably not what's making it randomly trip , but, it would be the first thing I would change.
I would take each pigtail to the neutral bar individually to eliminate any possibility of some type of shared interference.

JAP>
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Either pigtail all three together or connected to Neutral buss, it is still the same on the supply side.
 
edward said:
Either pigtail all three together or connected to Neutral buss, it is still the same on the supply side.
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May be, but it's not common at all to see multiple pigtails from Arc Faults or Ground Fault breakers tied together with a single wire to the neutral bar.
I'd still change it regardless.

JAP>
 
dkidd said:
I have designed apartments that were fed 3ph from the utility.
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Sure, but what you aren't answering is the question about the dwellings in that complex. . . How many of the individual dwellings are given full 3-phase five-wire panels (not just 208 / 120 Volt single phase)?

In my long career, I have seen only one single-family dwelling that had a three-phase service, and it was one weird animal as it was the SECOND service. It was 30 Amp 240 Volt THREE-WIRE three-phase from an open delta transformer bank, installed for pump motors. The FIRST service was 100 Amp 240 / 120 Volt three-wire single-phase from an entirely different transformer.
 
jap said:
May be, but it's not common at all to see multiple pigtails from Arc Faults or Ground Fault breakers tied together with a single wire to the neutral bar.
I'd still change it regardless.

JAP>
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I agree with you on both accounts. But you may agree for troubleshooting purposes it won't matter.
 
Sierrasparky said:
That would result in a overloaded neutral not a handle tie issue.
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If it were the three phase application I described it wouldn't overload, and last I recall handle ties are required for multiwire branch circuits - which that jumper basically creates a MWBC. So for a single phase panel we not only have a handle tie issue we also have an overloaded neutral issue.

JFletcher said:
kwired, you ever see a 3ph panel in a single or two family residence?
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Can't say I have. Won't say it is impossible though. Never wired a multi-million dollar mansion, thinking that may be one place you might be more likely to run into such a thing that is still sort of considered a dwelling or at least has sub dwelling sections to it.
 
1793 said:
I ran across a residential panel that my customer is complaining of a 15a 120v AFCI breaker randomly tripping. When I removed the cover I noticed the only three AFCI breakers in a row. As I looked into it closer I noticed that someone had grouped all three AFCI neutral pigtails together to a single #14 neutral.
Click to expand...

I agree with the rest that the pigtail, while not Code compliant, is not at all likely to cause a single AFCI breaker, of three, to randomly trip.

Look first to all the loads, then start analyzing the branch circuit itself. One of the hairier AFCI troubleshoots I had was an EGC in a receptacle outlet box that was poorly folded into the box. A door slam, or a heavy foot fall on the less-than-rock-solid floor would occasionally cause the EGC to contact the device neutral terminal screw, tripping the AFCI. I eventually found it by having to go J-box to J-box along the entire branch circuit.
 
edward said:
I agree with you on both accounts. But you may agree for troubleshooting purposes it won't matter.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't bet money on that.

Maybe the connection in the wirenut before the pigtail gets to the neutral bar is loose and causing some funky voodoo in the electronics of one of the Arc Fault breakers to freak out.

Who knows?, stranger things have happened.

JAP>
 
As far as troubleshooting it would matter.

Taking each individual pigtail to the neutral bar and eliminating the possibility of a loose connection in the splice would be the very first place I'd start.

JAP>
 
al hildenbrand said:
I agree with the rest that the pigtail, while not Code compliant, is not at all likely to cause a single AFCI breaker, of three, to randomly trip.

Look first to all the loads, then start analyzing the branch circuit itself. One of the hairier AFCI troubleshoots I had was an EGC in a receptacle outlet box that was poorly folded into the box. A door slam, or a heavy foot fall on the less-than-rock-solid floor would occasionally cause the EGC to contact the device neutral terminal screw, tripping the AFCI. I eventually found it by having to go J-box to J-box along the entire branch circuit.
Click to expand...

Damned fine troubleshooting!

Was in a building yesterday that when the bathroom door slammed, the walk-thru metal detector would go off. I recommended a new door closer, or slow down the hydraulics on the existing one, so it closed softer/slower. No idea why it set off the metal detector, just found the cause of it going off.
 
JFletcher said:
Damned fine troubleshooting!

Was in a building yesterday that when the bathroom door slammed, the walk-thru metal detector would go off. I recommended a new door closer, or slow down the hydraulics on the existing one, so it closed softer/slower. No idea why it set off the metal detector, just found the cause of it going off.
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Damn fine troubleshooting, yet poor resolution to the acutual cause of the problem.

JAP>
 
jap said:
Damn fine troubleshooting, yet poor resolution to the acutual cause of the problem.

JAP>
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If you're referring to me, I wasnt there to troubleshoot anything, or paid for anything. I was on other business and happened to notice the door slam coinciding with the detector beeping.

eta: I was commending Al on his troubleshooting, not my own observations at the place I was at.
 
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