AFCI Protection in Clothes Closets

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GeorgeB said:
Why is no one considering it to be the closet light SWITCH, which is in the bedroom in all examples so far, to be what is requiring AFCI? I see no question that if present, the closet lamp wiring must comply.

BUT, what if the switch is inside the closet? To me, that is the issue that is open.
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G.B., don't say that too loud. Al might hear you. :)

Did you ever see this thread, which had the highest number of replies ever in the history of the universe? It was about whether a switch is an outlet.

I believe a switch is not an outlet, therefore where the switch is for the closet lights has no bearing on AFCI protection, IMO.

[fingers in ears, humming quietly, rocking back and forth]
 
GeorgeB, be sure to read the whole thread (just kidding) :D but make sure you look at post 766 in the George Stolz's link if you don't want to read it all.

Roger
 
roger said:
Allen, have you ever asked to see this definition in writing? It doesn't matter whose code it is in, for it be code it has to be documented somewhere.

BTW, I do know that it wouldn't be a big deal to put the closet on the AFCI protected Bedroom circuit, and in most cases it is probably the easiest and most sensible.

But in a case where there may be a reason that this would not be true, I know I would object to being made to do it at my expense because there is some unwritten rule.

(Edited to make a sentence make sense, this was after Georges post)

Roger
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Roger all I am stating is that the EI says that it is required by the building dept and the fire marshall.have I asked for documentation.NO I have not,am I going to p the inspector off asking for this documentation NO.The train of thought is that if it has a clothing closet it can be used as a bedroom.Do I think it is stupid,YES.Do I comply YES.Is it worth the fight No not IMO.

On this forum we can argue till the cows come home.But in reality when a builder calls and asks why he can`t get a C.O. to close a home and I answer the EI says that we need a smoke or afci protection they just throw it back in our laps.Your the EC.git r done.It`s a business thing.Would you risk big bucks on a principal issue (it`s not in writing so I`m going to fight it )

Sorry but in this low profit, high production, high overhead business that is not a plausible answer.The old show me i`m from missorri answer just doesn`t work anymore.Here we can ask for articles documentation etc. but in the real world results tell the truth.

What it comes down to is a dollar and cents issue.Do I fight and lose the dollars when deals are not closed due to principals or documentation, or do you cave in and go with the flow.
 
Wow this thing took off.

Our local ordinance says that if it has a closet with a pole then it is a bedroom and like someone else said you can call it whatever you want but it is considered a sleeping room and is wired as such. If you call it a den then it will not have a closet.

And as someone mentioned we might be going to AFCI's throughout the whole house in the 2008 NEC so then it would become a mute point as to what we call a room.

And to reply to something else said a swtich is an outlet. A swith outlet, a light outlet, a receptacle outlet.
 
cowboyjwc said:
And to reply to something else said a swtich is an outlet. A swith outlet,
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No it's not, you show us in the NEC where there is a definition of "Switch Outlet"

Here are the definitions with "switch" in them.

Switch, Bypass Isolation. A manually operated device used in conjunction with a transfer switch to provide a means of directly connecting load conductors to a power source and of disconnecting the transfer switch.
See 700.6(B) and 701.7(B) for further information on bypass isolation transfer switches.

Switch, General-Use. A switch intended for use in general distribution and branch circuits. It is rated in amperes, and it is capable of interrupting its rated current at its rated voltage.

Switch, General-Use Snap. A form of general-use switch constructed so that it can be installed in device boxes or on box covers, or otherwise used in conjunction with wiring systems recognized by this Code.

Switch, Isolating. A switch intended for isolating an electric circuit from the source of power. It has no interrupting rating, and it is intended to be operated only after the circuit has been opened by some other means.

Switch, Motor-Circuit. A switch rated in horsepower that is capable of interrupting the maximum operating overload current of a motor of the same horsepower rating as the switch at the rated voltage.

Switch, Transfer. An automatic or nonautomatic device for transferring one or more load conductor connections from one power source to another.
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Now let's look at some "Outlets"

Lighting Outlet. An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder, a luminaire (lighting fixture), or a pendant cord terminating in a lampholder.
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Receptacle Outlet. An outlet where one or more receptacles are installed.
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With no definition it doesn't exist. Also, the term "Switch Outlet" is not used once in the NEC whereas "Lighting Outlet" and "Receptacle Outlet" are used many times.

Now, if you do in fact have a written ordinance then you have a code, if you do not, you don't.

Out of curiosity, where can we access this ordinance online?

Roger
 
Cavie, did you take time to read the link provided by George?

If not you need to do so. (I'm really sorry :D)

OK, looking at the definition of Outlet.

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
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A switch doesn't take current anymore than a wire nut does, it simply connects the wires.

Now, how about an answer as to why there is no definition of a "Switch Outlet" and why the term "Switch Outlet" is not used in any article of the NEC.

Roger
 
How does a switch not take current? A snap switch is a form of a general use switch and that says "....it is capable of interrupting its rated current at its rated voltage."

If you have to protect all of the outlets in the room including the "lighting outlet" then by default you have to protect the switch.

You are correct though, it does not say "switch outlet" so I'll work on that for the 2012 code.
 
cowboyjwc said:
How does a switch not take current?
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Does voltage drop across a switch on it own?

There can be no current without voltage drop across a resistor/load, so unless the switch has some measurable resistance between it contacts it can not take current any more than just touching two wires together with no load in the circuit.

Roger
 
What if it a lighted switch ? At that point it would utilize power and not just divert it........Also as stated if the lighting outlet has to be afci protected then the switch for that lighting outlet would have to be afci protected,can`t have one protected and not the other !!!!!
 
When I ask my wife where something is she will say ,in the hall closet or the bedroom closet or the spare bedroom closet.So I guess a bedroom closet is in the BEDROOM ......... :)
 
[fingers out of ears]

Click here for the original format, original thread. I just realized after reading Roger's post about starting at post #766 in the old thread, that formatting issues really make it kind of hard to follow.

If you click on the link above, you will be directed to the post mentioned, in the old "read-only" forum.

With that said,

[/fingers out of ears]
 
With apologies to the dead horse being beaten here,
why was the afci introduced in the first place ? Aside from
the political/financial conspiracy theory (with which I can't wholly
disagree) there is evidence that the phenomenon of arc
faulting has been the cause of fires, particularly in
situations where receptacles are utilized in close proximity to
flammable materials such as sheets and curtains, i.e. in bedrooms.

Splitting hairs about whether a clothes closet is or is not in a bedroom does
not change the fact that it is likely to have a great amount of potentially
flammable material in proximity to any electrical outlets that exist there.

In NYC, it is against code to even put a receptacle in a clothes closet.
 
allenwayne said:
When I ask my wife where something is she will say ,in the hall closet or the bedroom closet or the spare bedroom closet.So I guess a bedroom closet is in the BEDROOM ......... :)
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That must be where we keep BEDROOMS.When finished using a bedroom we put it away in the bedroom closet.
 
flashlight,
there is evidence that the phenomenon of arc
faulting has been the cause of fires, particularly in
situations where receptacles are utilized in close proximity to
flammable materials such as sheets and curtains, i.e. in bedrooms.
Click to expand...
If that is really the case, then how come the currently available AFCIs provide almost zero protection from those types of problems?? The protection provided by the AFCI now on the market is for the fixed wiring of the building. It provides very little protection on the load side of the receptacle.
Don
 
cowboyjwc said:
Wow this thing took off.

Our local ordinance says that if it has a closet with a pole then it is a bedroom and like someone else said you can call it whatever you want but it is considered a sleeping room and is wired as such. If you call it a den then it will not have a closet.
Click to expand...

Wow. In my house I have closets in:

laundry room
kitchen (2, 1 "real" closet & 1 pantry)
library
2 bathrooms
foyer
upstairs hall
downstairs hall
4 bedrooms (one of which has two closets)
the sitting room (which is a separate room, divided from the master bedroom by a standard 6 panel door)

(my wife was always irritated at the lack of closets in our first home, so she may have over compensated a bit when we designed this one.)

So, in your jurisdiction does that mean I really have a 12 bedroom house?
Actually, they don't all have poles, so I guess it's only an 8 bedroom house.
 
allenwayne said:
What if it a lighted switch ? At that point it would utilize power and not just divert it........Also as stated if the lighting outlet has to be afci protected then the switch for that lighting outlet would have to be afci protected,can`t have one protected and not the other !!!!!
Click to expand...

Excellent - it took 50 posts to get to this point.
 
This is crazy.What we have in real life is apartments with 2 bedrooms and someone sleeping on the couch.We are protecting only the ones sleeping in them rooms with doors and OUR CLOTHES .but do nothing for the 5 year old that sleeps on the couch.And bottom line is payoffs are what got us the afci to begin with that never worked as promised.Sounds more like a BUSH.
 
Mike, if you have a closet in the hall then it is a hall closet and when it is in the so called library it would probably be called a bedroom. (By our ordinance)

We treat a kitchen pantry the same as a closet when it comes to installing light fixtures.

The building code doesn't allow a bedroom to exit into the garage but nothing says that you can't have an office exit into it. The difference? No closet.

We have to call everything something, definitions as a defense are just a way of splitting hairs. If a set of plans came through your office and it said medical suite and every room was labeled office, my guess is you would send it back asking about the exam rooms. What's the difference between an office and an exam room? Simply the definition.

We just had a situation here where a man was killed and his infant son and wife were injured in a fire why? They were sleeping on a converted back porch of a house and it didn't have a smoke detector, why? Because ones not required, why? Because you're not supposed to be sleeping in a converted porch. We now have an active code inforcement division that only deals with converted garages and other illegle conversions.

We can't save the world, but our jobs are to try to make it safer. If our only concern is the almighty dollar then I think that's a sad thing.
 
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