AFCI Protection in Clothes Closets

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No you can`t save the world but you can`t make it safe for all.People will do what they want regardless of what the code says.Our jurisdiction also tried to form a code compliance division.This was compiled of electrical,plumbing,mechanical,building inspectors.One could go to a residense and site the other trade voilations and slap a red condemmed sticker on the door and order the ocupants to leave.

This was in a new and upcoming area that was previously listed as a poor area.So nobody cared what they did.Add ons with no inspections never mind code violations.Jim W knows the area Moon lake.Well the first week out the inspectors went out and when they slapped that condemed sticker was attached they were met with rather irate and very large persons that tore them off and almost crammed them down the inspectors throats.

Needless to say that the division was disbanded and it went back to the way it was.The sherrifs dept wanted no part of this situation and quickly told the inspectors that unless there was a definitive threat they could do nothing.But if it gets to a definitive threat they would be to late MHO.
 
cowboyjwc said:
Mike, if you have a closet in the hall then it is a hall closet and when it is in the so called library it would probably be called a bedroom. (By our ordinance)
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And when the library has three walls that are floor to ceiling oak bookshelves (not added over drywall, they are the original wall covering), and no door, just a doorway opening into the foyer? Still a bedroom?

We have to call everything something, definitions as a defense are just a way of splitting hairs. If a set of plans came through your office and it said medical suite and every room was labeled office, my guess is you would send it back asking about the exam rooms. What's the difference between an office and an exam room? Simply the definition.
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I understand what you are saying, and I've seen plenty of rooms that were four walls and a closet called any number of things except a bedroom. In most cases probably to duck water/sewer/septic requirements rather than a smoke detector. But I also see a lot of high end designs these days that have plenty of bedrooms and a variety of other special purpose rooms. I just don't agree that the mere existence of a closet should automatically turn another room into a bedroom. I've seen a lot of designs with home theaters, stepped floor for tiered seating, wired for all the A/V gear and not infrequently with a "projection booth" for the A/V equipment. Add a closet - is it now a bedroom? In my own house the laundry room is upstairs, certainly big enough to plausibly be a small bedroom. Wired and plumbed for a washer and dryer, yet it too has a closet. Bedroom again?

I have no problem at all agreeing that a basic room that has four walls and a closet could be considered a bedroom for the purpose of requiring a smoke detector, since it's highly likely someone will use it that way. But rooms that are designed for other purposes and wired, plumbed or otherwise finished to suit that purpose shouldn't be called a bedroom because the owner/designer/whoever likes to put closets everywhere.
 
I always try to do more than code requires, so with that said if i'm wiring a new house, and I come across a room that is not a bedroom (at that time) but possible in the future, I rough I smoke in it... whats so hard about that... I would rather loose 100 bucks in time and labor than have someone die in a house I wired....
 
allenwayne said:
No you can`t save the world but you can`t make it safe for all.People will do what they want regardless of what the code says.Our jurisdiction also tried to form a code compliance division.This was compiled of electrical,plumbing,mechanical,building inspectors.One could go to a residense and site the other trade voilations and slap a red condemmed sticker on the door and order the ocupants to leave.

This was in a new and upcoming area that was previously listed as a poor area.So nobody cared what they did.Add ons with no inspections never mind code violations.Jim W knows the area Moon lake.Well the first week out the inspectors went out and when they slapped that condemed sticker was attached they were met with rather irate and very large persons that tore them off and almost crammed them down the inspectors throats.

Needless to say that the division was disbanded and it went back to the way it was.The sherrifs dept wanted no part of this situation and quickly told the inspectors that unless there was a definitive threat they could do nothing.But if it gets to a definitive threat they would be to late MHO.
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They should not mess with crackers.Some of them shoot first then ask questions.Also they have no right to enter private property unless a crime is likely to be going on.I think we all have seen rooms turned into bedrooms ,even garages turned into everything from family rooms to bedrooms.Many livingrooms have sofa beds but not all living rooms have smokes.
 
stickboy1375 said:
I always try to do more than code requires, so with that said if i'm wiring a new house, and I come across a room that is not a bedroom (at that time) but possible in the future, I rough I smoke in it... whats so hard about that... I would rather loose 100 bucks in time and labor than have someone die in a house I wired....
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Once again stick, on the same page.
 
Stick,

That's kind of where I was headed. We're arguing over putting one (1)recpetecale on an AFCI. Just because we don't agree with the inspector. My best guess, since we haven't heard, is that it has been changed or will be if he wants final.

Remember, arguing with an inspector is like trying to teach your cat to fly, it's a waste of time and it annoys the cat.
 
cowboyjwc said:
Stick.

Remember, arguing with an inspector is like trying to teach your cat to fly, it's a waste of time and it annoys the cat.
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A little full of your self aren't you?

Roger
 
Gee don't know if that's ever been said about me. : )

The other one is, arguing with your inspector is like wrestling with a pig in a mud pit. After awhile you'll figure out the pig enjoys it.

On a serious note it is the inspectors job to interpretat the code. If he says that's what it is and (notice I said "and") his BO and/or Chief agrees then that is going to be the policy.
 
So you are saying you shut the door on an electricians request that you provide back up to your interpretation / claims.

In your mind you can simply say there is a code or ordinance somewhere that backs up your stance and the electrician is supposed to think you are God and just believe and accept it.

Sounds pretty much like a power thing.

Why do you think your interpretation and your BO's is above proof or open minded discussion?

Do you have some illusion that you are smarter or above the electricians you are inspecting?

I asked you in this thread to provide back up to your claim of having an ordinance that backs you up and you have not been able to do so.


Roger
 
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cowboyjwc said:
On a serious note it is the inspectors job to interpretat the code. If he says that's what it is and (notice I said "and") his BO and/or Chief agrees then that is going to be the policy.
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What does BO stand for?

Here in MA there is a board which meets every month for hearings if an electrician and inspector have a dispute.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
They should not mess with crackers.Some of them shoot first then ask questions.Also they have no right to enter private property unless a crime is likely to be going on.I think we all have seen rooms turned into bedrooms ,even garages turned into everything from family rooms to bedrooms.Many livingrooms have sofa beds but not all living rooms have smokes.
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As a matter of fact it was C_ _ Y who went to the code enforcment division it was 1 1/2 years ago,From what the other inspectors told me he tried to tell this really large guy that he had to move and was shot at as he drove like a madman down the limerock road.The next day he was back in the EI section :)

Most living rooms/family rooms are in close proximity to a bedroom and do usually have a smoke in them.As a norm I also rough a smoke in every room that has a closet in it.It`s easier to do on rough then after all is completed.
 
John, BO stands for Building Official. We don't have a panel that meets once a month, but we do have an appointed board that meets whenever there is a dispute.

Roger, I never said that. I never even implied that. My one argument with my inspectors is that we have enough to call without making stuff up. 90.4 says as I'm sure you all know "...The authority having jurisdiction for enforcement of the Code has the responsibility for making interpretations of the rules..."

There is a process that we go through when we adopt the codes and amendments as a jurisdiction. This process allows anyone to comment on these items and stimulate discussion. In the 17 years I have been here not one person has ever stepped up. I also know of only one or two electricians that have even bothered to come into our office and pick up a copy of the local ammendments.

I also don't have any illusions that I am smarter than the guys in the field and am insulted by your comment. I've been in the trade for 30 years 13 in the field and 17 as an inspector. I've been there and done that as they say. You don't know me well enough to accuse me of being on a power trip, ask anyone of my local contractors and you would find out that you are mistaken.

I have an handout that gives "our" definition of a bedroom. I simply do not know how to post it and it doesn't really matter what my handout says since I am not the one who made the original call. What matters is what that inspectors office thinks a bedroom is. All of our "interpretations" are at the front counter for everone to have access to.

I once had a guy who wanted to "discuss" an interpretation, someone called my office everyday for three days to "discuss" the call, I sent everyone of them a copy of the code section and whatever else I thought was relevent. At the end of the week I found myself in the Building Officials office with this gentleman who was accusing me of holding his job up for three days. I simply asked him, "how long did it take to fix the correction?" he told us, two hours. I then said that I would take responsiblity for the two hours, but he was the one who wanted to "discuss" it for three days. My boss agreed with me.

All I've been trying to say other than I agree with the inspector is that a lot of time and money and man power can be wasted trying to prove which one of us it right. I never said that the inspector shouldn't prove that he is correct, but the contractor has that same responsibility. Bring something to the inspector, a dictionary definition, a code section (even ones from neighboring cities, etc), a code section, something. Prove your point. I've said I'm wrong before it's not that hard to say.
 
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