afci question

[burro]

I want to be sure I understand the code. My county has not adopted the 2008 code yet on afci, but it is required on bedroom circuits. The code says the bedroom outlets must be afci protected including outlets used for lighting. I assume that to mean a wall outlet that is controlled by a wall switch and not the ceiling lighting outlet.

This *might* depend on where you are -- some states (E.g. New Mexico) apparently required AFCI on receptacles, but not on pure lighting circuits, at least as of 2005, giving the electrician the option of not including lighting, ceiling fan and smoke detector outlets on AFCI circuits.

Note that as of 2008, dedicated smoke detector circuits do not have to be on AFCI. That's a switch from previous.

 

[K8MHZ]

Are you sure about the smoke alarm ? The instruction included with the alarm on two I installed this week said to install on a 120 v circuit not protected by gfci or afci.

I would love to see that in print!

Do you have a link or at least a name and manufacturer so I can see if there is something to download?

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Jim, are we back to these 1st grade level arguments again? There might be a perfectly good reason to feed them from an individual branch circuit, and if the batteries go dead then the alarms go "chirp" and the people replace them.

What argument ? How about you telling us the good reason to feed them on there own.

 

[peter d]

What argument ? How about you telling us the good reason to feed them on there own.

This is so very simple. If people are going to defeat smoke alarms, it doesn't matter if it's on with a lighting circuit or an individual branch circuit. Just about every rental property I've wired or done work in had the hard wired smoke detector ripped out, sometimes destroying the pigtail in the process. Do you think they bothered looking for the circuit it was on? Nope. Same thing with the battery operated ones - they just take the battery out. No circuit involved there.

My point is it doesn't matter a hill of beans how we wire them - someone will find a way to defeat them. If they shut them down, rip them down, or take the battery out after I'm gone- I don't really care. I can't protect idiots from themselves.

 

[jetlag]

Its all the outlets.Thats receptacles,light fixtures and smoke detector

my mistake. It a kidde i12060 it says to install on a 120v volt non switched circuit which is not protected by gfci. It was the ahj that didnt want the afci. His reason, those afci 's are to easy to trip and turn the alarm off. Ok ,it saved me 35 bucks so I didnt argue.

 

[stickboy1375]

my mistake. It a kidde i12060 it says to install on a 120v volt non switched circuit which is not protected by gfci. It was the ahj that didnt want the afci. His reason, those afci 's are to easy to trip and turn the alarm off. Ok ,it saved me 35 bucks so I didnt argue.

That comment has lawsuit written all over it if a problem ever arose. Why would you just listen to him anyways?

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

my mistake. It a kidde i12060 it says to install on a 120v volt non switched circuit which is not protected by gfci. It was the ahj that didnt want the afci. His reason, those afci 's are to easy to trip and turn the alarm off. Ok ,it saved me 35 bucks so I didnt argue.

He did set you up for lawsuit.Unless you have local amendment he has no right to tell you to make a violation.Invite him to this forum.NEC says ALL outlets.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

This is so very simple. If people are going to defeat smoke alarms, it doesn't matter if it's on with a lighting circuit or an individual branch circuit. Just about every rental property I've wired or done work in had the hard wired smoke detector ripped out, sometimes destroying the pigtail in the process. Do you think they bothered looking for the circuit it was on? Nope. Same thing with the battery operated ones - they just take the battery out. No circuit involved there.

My point is it doesn't matter a hill of beans how we wire them - someone will find a way to defeat them. If they shut them down, rip them down, or take the battery out after I'm gone- I don't really care. I can't protect idiots from themselves.

Thats all true but you did not state a good reason to have them on a circuit by themselfs.If on with a used circuit they atleast have a better chance of working on a circuit thats missed.When the tv stops and they are in the dark they will go reset breaker.When they remove it they created the problem that might land themself with a felony charge.

 

[iwire]

He did set you up for lawsuit.

When they remove it they created the problem that might land themself with a felony charge.

Been watching Law and Order this weekend?

 

[jetlag]

Been watching Law and Order this weekend?

I stated earlier my county has not adopted the 2008 code yet and the and the alarm is not on the afci protected bedroom circuit. The ahj wants the alarm on another lighting circuit so there will be indications if it is tripped. Until my county adopts the 2008 code I dont feel mandated to watch law and order.

 

[M. D.]

He did set you up for lawsuit.Unless you have local amendment he has no right to tell you to make a violation.Invite him to this forum.NEC says ALL outlets.

Did anyone click the link I posted HERE ??? That brand warns me ,.in big bold ,black letters, to install them under the provisions of 760.. both 760.41 ( non power limited) and 760.121 (b) prohibit them from from being supplied through AFCI ,..

 

[G0049]

Where does the bedroom stop?

Where does the bedroom stop?

What's included in the "bedroom circuit"? I'm looking at a bedroom which has a walk-in closet, seperated by a regular interior door, with a pull chain lamp holder. Through the back wall of the closet is a half-height interior door to a storage room under the slanted roof. This too has a pull chain lamp holder. Are either or both of these lamp holders required to be AFI protected? The house is mostly wired with 90 year old k&t, 60 amp service and needs udating. For reasons of accessibility, the closet and storage cubby will not be on the same circuit as the bedroom. Under the 2005 code, would a circuit that supplys these lights be a bedroom circuit?.

 

[wbalsam1]

Did anyone click the link I posted HERE ??? That brand warns me ,.in big bold ,black letters, to install them under the provisions of 760.. both 760.41 ( non power limited) and 760.121 (b) prohibit them from from being supplied through AFCI ,..

Very interesting dilema. In New York State, for 1 family dwellings we use the RCNYS (based on the 2002 NEC) and it says at R313.1 that all smoke alarms shall be installed in accordance with the household fire warning equipment provisions of NFPA 72. We (NYS) also reference the 2002 NEC in our generally accepted reference standards code, which then in turn has Article 110 where at 110.3(B) it states that equipment must be installed in accordance with it's listing and labeling.

Now fast forward to page 6 of this instruction manual provided by M.D. and note that it requires installation to comply with Article 760 which actually prohibits the AFCI being used.
Talk about confusing smoke alarms and smoke detectors...AFCI or no AFCI...
Hope these instructions get cleared up pretty soon.

These conflicting rules are enough to drive me crazy.

An inspector or an electrician in the same room with a bunch of code language writers must be a lot like a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs. :grin:

 

[burro]

Smoke alarms not required to be on AFCI in 2008

Smoke alarms not required to be on AFCI in 2008

I stated earlier my county has not adopted the 2008 code yet and the and the alarm is not on the afci protected bedroom circuit. The ahj wants the alarm on another lighting circuit so there will be indications if it is tripped. Until my county adopts the 2008 code I dont feel mandated to watch law and order.

Again, in 2008, a dedicated smoke circuit/branch does not need to be on AFCI, with some conditions.

See NEC2008 section 210.12(B) Exception 2 (added in 2008, not present prior):

210.12(B)
Exception No. 2: Where a branch circuit to a fire alarm system installed in accordance with 760.41(B) and 760.121(B) is installed in RMC, IMC, EMT, or steel armored cable, Type AC, meeting the requirements of250.118, with metal outlet and junction boxes, AFCI protection shall be permitted to be omitted.

However, if you are still under 2002 or 2005 NEC, I believe you *must* be on AFCI for the smoke circuit/branch. (See, e.g., http://www.afcisafety.org/codes.html, since I don't have the 2002 book handy). I just checked the 2005 book, and that's how it reads to me, too.

In any case, the only downside to AFCI is the hypothetical situation in which the AFCI false-trips (you'd *want* a real trip to trip), and the dwelling dweller ignores the chirps until the batteries are dead, right?

Useful links:

Free, restricted access to the 2008 NEC online
Free, restricted access to the 2005 NEC online
List of NEC adopted versions by state

 

[burro]

An inspector or an electrician in the same room with a bunch of code language writers must be a lot like a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs. :grin:

The NEC *desperately needs to employ one or more skilled professional editors who are well-versed in English language common usage. There is virtually no evidence that they are making use of anyone like that.

 

[wbalsam1]

The NEC *desperately needs to employ one or more skilled professional editors who are well-versed in English language common usage. There is virtually no evidence that they are making use of anyone like that.

Not knowing with the slightest degree of accuracy, I could not presume to designate per adventure I might err. Hopefully, my language will not be too copius for one's diminutive, penetrating sagacity. :grin: (Does this qualify me for the job? )

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Been watching Law and Order this weekend?

bad boys,bad boys,whatcha gonna do-----------------