AFCI Rage...I have it BAD

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Here's the scoop. I have a couple of jobs with new combo afci's installed. Both jobs have breakers tripping, both are made by Siemens. (Murray and GE)

The tripping is intermittent. Fine for days then trip. Try to reset and it won't then resets and fine for days and trip again. Replaced breakers, problems persist. Indicator light show trip cause to be "arc fault".

I have not ruled out a wiring issue yet. It could very well be something I did or whatever with the wiring.

What is bothering me is if there really is a problem, how many of these situations exist in installations pre AFCI and how dangerous are they really?

Hard to believe that two brand new installations and both have arc fault conditions. :confused:

Both are loaded with recessed lighting and dimmers. The other AFCI circuits feeding receptacles are fine. Common link?

Anyway the cause of the "rage" is not so much the breakers themselves, it is the attitude from Siemens. I called the tech number that is right on the sticker they give you to put on the panel. Explain the situation and they tell me hold I'll find somebody to help. She gets back on tells me to call a local distributor and goes about listing some in my area. I explain I am not looking to BUY breakers I already did, that's what I am troubleshooting. She still says call a local distributor they are trained to assist in troubleshooting.

Of course I say shouldn't YOU as the people who actually made the product be the one to assist with technical questions? "No sir we do not offer technical support for this product." WHAAAATTTT????

Then the obscenity laced tirade begins pointing out how they forced this expensive, untested, unproven, and flawed product on the consumer and then they have the nerve to just blow me off like this. Those mother....you know what I mean. :mad:

All I wanted was a few sugestions, maybe some acknowledgement that there might be some issues, something other than good luck sucker.

Bottom line. AFCIs removed and regular breakers installed on one job. Other still up in the air. :rolleyes:

Side note. I have some of the older afci's in my house that feed a lighting ciruit with Lutron Spacer System dimmers. Occasionaly the breaker will trip, but ONLY when using the remote to operate the lights, never ever when using the wall devices or when the lights are just on. Weird stuff. :rolleyes:
 
Read the post I did a while back about troubleshooting a GFCI with a megger, and apply those techniques to your AFCI problem. By the way, that 'arc fault' light on the breaker has proven to me that it's only semi-accurate.
 
electricmanscott said:
:mad: More later but to start, AFCI trouble shooting, called Siemens, response amounted to go poop in a hat, nothing we can do for you. :mad:

Be back with story....
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Just like the nightly news. Gets you all worked up and then..."Comming up after the break...." :) I gues I'll read the commercials until you get back.

The "go poop in a hat" part was a nice teaser.
 
electricmanscott said:
Of course I say shouldn't YOU as the people who actually made the product be the one to assist with technical questions? "No sir we do not offer technical support for this product." WHAAAATTTT????
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Would you expect P&S to tell someone over the phone how to wire up a set of 3-ways that they had screwed up?

Use your noodle. This isnt' really exotic technology. There are two reasons AFCI's trip, and there is test equipment for both. Get some and learn how to use it. Here's my unconditional money back guarantee... with a megger and the requisite training on how to use it, you can find the precise reason why any AFCI is tripping in less than 4 hours (if you're slow).
 
electricmanscott said:
I have not ruled out a wiring issue yet. It could very well be something I did or whatever with the wiring.
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I understand your frustration, but if you don't know what the cause is, how can a tech trouble-shoot it over the phone? They may provide some suggestions, but that's all you can expect.
 
electricmanscott said:
Both are loaded with recessed lighting and dimmers. The other AFCI circuits feeding receptacles are fine. Common link?
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Those recessed fixtures could be the key to this. This is just a guess but it seems to me that almost anything could cause a series arc. This could be a loose connection ( darn hard to check with a bunch of recessed cans ) or something as simple as a loose lamp that maybe vibrates at times ( people walking on the floor above ).

I think I would check each and every lamp in every fixture to make sure they are seated properly. If that doesn't work I would check the wires to the lamp sockets.

What may have to happen in the future is that recessed cans may need to be burned in for a couple of days before the sheet rock goes up.

This is just an idea. If it sounds crazy feel free to ignore. :smile:
 
mdshunk said:
Would you expect P&S to tell someone over the phone how to wire up a set of 3-ways that they had screwed up?
.
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Point taken.

It was the lack of any type of concern that ticked me off. This is a multi gazillion dollar international company and they just brush me off? Not right. And don't try to BS me into believing the guys behind the counter at my supplier know ANYTHING about afci's.
 
Welcome

Welcome

ElectricmanScott. I feel your pain and thanks for you rage. Every one of these commentaries abount this madness Just helps me in my own learning curve for this new device.

I'd tell you about my recent experience but my doctor said I should watch my blood pressure. :rolleyes:

....and the teaser pays off. :cool:
 
480sparky said:
I understand your frustration, but if you don't know what the cause is, how can a tech trouble-shoot it over the phone? They may provide some suggestions, but that's all you can expect.
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That's the thing, they offered NOTHING.
 
mdshunk said:
This isnt' really exotic technology. There are two reasons AFCI's trip, and there is test equipment for both. Get some and learn how to use it. Here's my unconditional money back guarantee... with a megger and the requisite training on how to use it, you can find the precise reason why any AFCI is tripping in less than 4 hours (if you're slow).
Click to expand...


Ok, I'm game. Where do I get this training?
 
growler said:
Those recessed fixtures could be the key to this. This is just a guess but it seems to me that almost anything could cause a series arc. This could be a loose connection ( darn hard to check with a bunch of recessed cans ) or something as simple as a loose lamp that maybe vibrates at times ( people walking on the floor above ).

I think I would check each and every lamp in every fixture to make sure they are seated properly. If that doesn't work I would check the wires to the lamp sockets.

What may have to happen in the future is that recessed cans may need to be burned in for a couple of days before the sheet rock goes up.

This is just an idea. If it sounds crazy feel free to ignore. :smile:
Click to expand...

I have found the neutral wire pinched in the J box cover causing an AFCI trip on more than one occasion.
 
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