AFCI Rage...I have it BAD

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electricmanscott said:
Ok, I'm game. Where do I get this training?
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You could start by using the search button, click 'advanced search', then look for the keyword "megger" from user mdshunk and brian john and maybe zog. Read the threads, and follow any external links to even more training material.

In short, there is no formal training that I'm aware of, but I'll answer anything you want to know in this regard the best way I know how if I can. Familiarize yourself with the operation of a couple new instruments and an AFCI will never kick your tail again.
 
I have a bone to pick....

I have a bone to pick....

mdshunk said:
.....Here's my unconditional money back guarantee... with a megger and the requisite training on how to use it, you can find the precise reason why any AFCI is tripping in less than 4 hours (if you're slow).
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Is this what you say to the customer? :grin:

I think his frustration is with the fault detected on a new installation. I'm sure he's concerned about how to recover the cost of the time spent with situations like these. I sure am.

Marc, why should we or our customers be forced with additional costs by the use of this product. Many of the people here who experience problems do top notch installations and only now are experiencing problems because of the product. And no support from the manufacturer? We all love your skills with the megger and it is much appreciated and worth learning, but dude....
 
Scott,

I wish I could help you with your AFCI problem but other than what I've been reading here in the forum I must admit I have no experience with nor do I know enough about them to speak intelligently. Our DCA here in NJ chose not to adopt that portion of the NEC regarding AFCI's for the very reason you bring up.

However, frankly speaking, I think your major problem is Siemens in general. I've also had problems where they wouldn't stand behind their products. We have a flower shop in a small strip mall here in my town where their flowers are kept in a refrigerated, walk-in box. Several years ago one of the compressors went bad but didn't trip the breaker. The fire dept came in and shut them down. A 2-P-30 breaker melted and the buss bar got so hot that when I removed the panel cover 6 breakers literally fell out and at least 4 spaces of the aluminum buss were completely melted. Siemens gave me some BS about the compressor cycling on and off "tricked" the breaker into believing that there was nothing wrong. As if that wasn't bad enough they (and the supply house that represented their products) wouldn't sell me a new buss bar (only) so I had to purchase an entire 42 circuit main lug 3 phase panel and throw out the cabinet.

Needless to say, I'm not a Siemens fan.

Regards,

Phil
 
frizbeedog said:
Marc, why should we or our customers be forced with additional costs by the use of this product. Many of the people here who experience problems do top notch installations and only now are experiencing problems because of the product.
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It is NOT because of the product. 99.99% of the time it will be an installation issue. The tripping AFCI is only the indicator of an issue, not the cause.
 
mdshunk said:
It is NOT because of the product. 99.99% of the time it will be an installation issue. The tripping AFCI is only the indicator of an issue, not the cause.
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Not sure if I saw it in this forum or not, but some wise old head recently lamented that we 'stopped ringing out our circuits' prior to energizing.

Maybe the use of AFCI's will force EC's to take the time to verify their rough in before the GWB goes on so that if there is a problem there is someone else to backcharge the troubleshooting time to (like the rockers).

(I've never rung out a circuit on any job but I'm not that much of an old head to use an example in any case.)
 
99.99% Positive Marc?

99.99% Positive Marc?

mdshunk said:
It is NOT because of the product. 99.99% of the time it will be an installation issue. The tripping AFCI is only the indicator of an issue, not the cause.
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Most of my problems have been due to the incorporation of existing wiring to the AFCI. But not to my new only installations unless it was a mistake that I hade made. The mistake being somewhat obvious, for being boneheaded. For the purpose of playing devil's advocate, I am defendeing electricmanscott in my assumption that his installations are good quality and that the problem lies elsewhere. Several members have alluded to problems with Seimens, and/or lack of support. "No, go poop in a hat, our product is good."

Is this product a quality detector or a safety device? ..remember, I'm the devil. :wink:

Choose another manufacturer, or question the technology?
 
mdshunk said:
It is NOT because of the product. 99.99% of the time it will be an installation issue. The tripping AFCI is only the indicator of an issue, not the cause.
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Installation OR non-compatable appliance. For instance, certain vacuums, in my experience.
 
mdshunk said:
It is NOT because of the product. 99.99% of the time it will be an installation issue. The tripping AFCI is only the indicator of an issue, not the cause.
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With the old AFCI's that was the case but the new combo AFCI's there is a little more to worry about.

The earlier AFCI only offered parallel arc fault protection ( should be easy enough to find with a megger ). If you do have a parallel arc it should still be easy to find.

New Combo AFCI's also offer series arc fault protection. The unintended flow of electricity over a gap within a single conductor. ( megger won't get you very far on that one).

What is an unintended gap? Anything from a loose wire nut to a loose receptacle to a lamp not seated properly. There are probably millions of these out there that no one is aware of because the technology didn't exist ( for the homeowner or average electrician ) to detect them. This gap may not even show up as a significant voltage drop. How many light sockets have you seen with slight arcing at the base? NO more of that, it's going to trip a breaker. Any old appliances or lamps owned by customers is going to be a real bastard to deal with ( when you get there they will be in a closet out of sight ).

I think these are going to be a little harder to find than the older problems. What will have to happen is all splices will need to be checked really close ( one even half loose wire nut will cause great problems ). Every fixture will have to be closely inspected to make sure it didn't come from the factory with defects in wiring.

Looking in my crystal ball I see the practice of back stabbing comming to an end. A loose back stab would show up as a series arc. Who knows soldering may make a come back before it's over. :grin: :grin:

I do agree with Scott's earlier prediction, we will make some money out of this but not by wiring houses ( that will be a loser ). Finding these problems is going to be where the money will be made.:)
 
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growler said:
With the old AFCI's that was the case but the new combo AFCI's there is a little more to worry about.
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I suppose that's where a stripped down DLRO is going to come into favor. I have yet to experiment with a TDR, but others report good results.
 
mdshunk said:
I suppose that's where a stripped down DLRO is going to come into favor. I have yet to experiment with a TDR, but others report good results.
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For people like you and I this may not be much of a problem but I'm sure you have seen the installations done by fast production crews. I can't think of a house that I have been in where I didn't find a few loose wire nuts. I find devices all the time that are just half way back stabbed. It's really going to slow these people down ( maybe a good thing).

I have actually been keeping my eye on the manufacturers of mobile homes to see what they come up with. They were useing the HI-POT tester. I haven't seen any articles of any more recent developements. They use a lot of unskilled workers so they will have to come up with something.
 
Growl on pup

Growl on pup

growler said:
.....Every fixture will have to be closely inspected to make sure it didn't come from the factory with defects in wiring.

Looking in my crystal ball I see the practice of back stabbing comming to an end. A loose back stab would show up as a series arc. Who knows soldering may make a come back before it's over. :grin: :grin:

I do agree with Scott's earlier prediction, we will make some money out of this but not by wiring houses ( that will be a loser ). Finding these problems is going to be where the money will be made.:)
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...and almost every fixture I install in a residence where these are required seem to be of poorer and poorer qaulity. It's cheaper for the manufacturer to produce these products overseas and ship them here for installation with the end user taking it in the a...

.. and as I was backstabbing a receptacle today I thought that I should reconsider and spend more man hours doing a sidewire.
 
frizbeedog said:
...and almost every fixture I install in a residence where these are required seem to be of poorer and poorer qaulity. It's cheaper for the manufacturer to produce these products overseas and ship them here for installation with the end user taking it in the a...
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That lack of quality control is really going to show up now. I have gotten under counter fixtures where all the wire nuts from the factory were falling off as they came out of the box. Many fixtures come with a few loose connections here and there.

The problem is going to be getting paid for the extra time. You may be able to return the fixure but that doesn't do much good. Probably add 10 to 15 minutes to every fixture install just checking factory wiring ( not talking about simple two lamp fixture) . How many fluorescent fixtures do you see loose wires on, I find them all the time.
 
Some of these problems are not in our control.

Some of these problems are not in our control.

growler said:
That lack of quality control is really going to show up now. I have gotten under counter fixtures where all the wire nuts from the factory were falling off as they came out of the box. Many fixtures come with a few loose connections here and there.

The problem is going to be getting paid for the extra time. You may be able to return the fixure but that doesn't do much good. Probably add 10 to 15 minutes to every fixture install just checking factory wiring ( not talking about simple two lamp fixture) . How many fluorescent fixtures do you see loose wires on, I find them all the time.
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My point exactly....right now the technology is hurting us.

Solutions please Marc....other than meggering. We have a bigger issue than just saying learn how to troubleshoot new installations.

What say you sir?
 
growler said:
How many fluorescent fixtures do you see loose wires on, I find them all the time.
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The job I'm on has 5000+ fluorescent fixtures, we've had to rewire about 10% cause the manufacturer (well known and made in US as well) has either put in wrong ballasts, or wired the ballasts to the sockets wrong. They're paying us to do it, but it sure gets old to deal with it.

A job before that we had highbays with crimped connections that weren't crimped, I guess the guy that used the crimper didn't show up to work that day.

At least I don't have to deal with AFCIs on commercial jobs. Whew, sorry guys, good luck or go poop in hat or something.....
 
AFCI Combo

AFCI Combo

Aside from manufacturer quality control, AFCI combination tripping has been factory tested to find that more than one load applied to an overall residential system, has harmonic triggering to add to the failure events.
 
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mdshunk said:
It is NOT because of the product. 99.99% of the time it will be an installation issue. The tripping AFCI is only the indicator of an issue, not the cause.
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Marc,

I'd like to believe that what you claim is 99.9% accurate. However, from what I'm reading this seems to be happening more and more often on new installations where we've never become accustomed to it ever happaned before. You may, in fact, be the world's greatest troubleshooter but the fact remains that if you're spending more time on the job tracing arc faults with your megger you're adding more unforseen cost to the job and making less money. Think about this, we're asking homeowners to spend more $$ to their total installation cost by adding these arc fault breakers and then after we power up they begin nuisance tripping for no apparent reason. You can't build the cost of troubleshooting into the cost of the job. The long and short of it is we come out of this looking like south ends of north bound horses because of this situation. I see delays in payment, reduction in prices, liens on houses, bad referrals and God knows what else.

I say force the manufacturers to put more quality control into their products instead of finding ways to mass produce them or outsource their production to some third world contry.

Off the soap box now.:grin:

Phil
 
I just don't buy the fact that there are these major problems that have existed in my installations for all of these years uncorrected yet none have gone up in flames. TWO installations since this product had been required and BOTH are causing tripping? Sure it could be something I did but the more I take things apart the less I am convinced.

According to the indicator these are NOT ground fault trips, they are arc fault trips. This is not a case of a neutral on a device inadvertantly contacting an egc in a box somewhere. Again, two installations with this product and BOTH have dangerous arcing faults? Will a megger really help find this problem or not?

I can say there is NO WAY IN HELL that I am going to take apart every reccesed light and every undercabinet light and check the connections I made. I did that when I installed them by making good connections and carefully tucking them into the fixture. I am certainly not going through and checking the manufacturers connections that came from the factory. It just is not going to happen. It would take DAYS to do this and I already paid for this by purchasing the fixture. :rolleyes:

I know that here had been heat issues with Siemens afcis in the past but that was supposedly corrected. Possibly relevant as I did move an afci that was grouped with a few other ones and carrying a 10 amp lighting load. It was fairly hot so I put it at the top of the bus away from other afcis. The lights were left on all day and the breaker held.
 
FWIW

I was on a resi. job last week with same type problem. The other sparky was having no luck finding the problem. I began troubleshooting by simply walking around the install and pressing on the faces of some of the duplex outlets wired into the AFCI, just enough to slightly bend the device/plastic cover inwards into the box. (About the same pressure as plugging something in.) That was the third instance that I discovered a ground wire that was almost contacting the grounded conductor. It would not make the contact untill someone plugged something in. After said device was plugged in, circuit would hold. The event contact/event happened only as it was being plugged in. Sometimes it is the simple stuff.

John
 
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