AFCI, Service Change and HR Extension

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M. D. said:
The op added 6' ,.. what if the 6' started at the ocpd and ended at the existing receptacle outlet??
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Then that 6' is a "branch circuit", but it is not a new branch circuit. The branch circuit was there before, and, presumably installed under an earlier NEC. If that earlier NEC did not have AFCI, then the added 6' does not create a new branch circuit.

That's an interesting distinction.

But, again to Al, my experience with the State of Minnesota AHJ is that the test is whether the outlet(s) on the end of the branch circuit is(are) new.
 
al hildenbrand said:
:smile:

Well, to carry my point to the extreme, . . .

Hypothetical situation: A receptacle outlet could be installed in a bed under the NEC pre-210.12(B) and have never been connected to a "branch circuit" (installer and inspector oversight). Later, say today, under the 2008 NEC, one connects a branch circuit, a branch circuit connected to an OCPD, to that same receptacle outlet. The old receptacle outlet is added to the "branch circuit", now, and, since the complete "branch circuit" to the old receptacle outlet is new, i.e., it had never been installed with the original receptacle outlet, 210.12(B) is invoked. Before there wasn't a complete branch circuit, after, the branch circuit is completed, for the first time, to the old receptacle outlet.

A different hypothetical: A bedroom branch circuit has a homerun to its OCPD. This bedroom is wired to a pre-210.12(B) NEC. The homerun passes through a kitchen on the way. Today, under the 2008 NEC, a kitchen remodel occurs, and the alterations require the electrician to replace 20' of original bedroom branch circuit homerun, and reroute the homerun along a new path 28' long. No new outlets are added on the bedroom branch circuit. 210.12(B) is NOT invoked, in this case, because the "branch circuit" existed before, under a previous Code, and continues to exist. The wiring method(s) installed in the reroute, the new path 28' long, would be installed to the requirements of today's NEC, but 210.12(B) isn't invoked because a new branch circuit is not added.
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Al,

I get a call to rewire a home with existing outlets in areas of 210.12(B), The Client wants all new branch circuits (replacing existing branch circuits) from existing outlets installed pre 210.12(B) back to the OCPD. Your saying I still don't need AFCI's on new branch circuits? I don't see that passing inspection even by newinspector1 (welcome to the jungle).

No difference here on the OP's question of 6' of new branch circuit wiring connecting to existing branch circuit wiring. I think AFCI's would be required.

- JWC
 
JWCELECTRIC said:
I get a call to rewire a home with existing outlets in areas of 210.12(B), The Client wants all new branch circuits (replacing existing branch circuits) from existing outlets installed pre 210.12(B) back to the OCPD.
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  1. Existing outlets. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Check
  2. Exisitng OCPD. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Check
  3. Existing branch circuit . . . . . . . . . . . . Check
  4. Reroute, replace branch circuit only . . . Check
  5. New outlets added . . . . . . . . . . . . . . No
  6. OCPD added . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . No
  7. Branch circuit added . . . . . . . . . . . . . No
To require 210.12(B) to be enforced would be a retroactive enforcement on an installation done and inspected under an earlier Code.
 
Al,..the minuet you removed the existing wiring system , you removed the outlets ,. as defined by the NEC .
The minuet you rewire the outlets and connect the new wiring to the ocpd you now have outlets on a wiring system and they require AFCI if they are in the areas mentioned in 210.12(B)
 
M. D. said:
the minuet you removed the existing wiring system , you removed the outlets.
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Then you would say the removal of the old service center (in order to only changeout the service center) also removes all the outlets?
 
Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

No wiring system ,... no outlets

my supply house has cases of device boxes , miles of wire ,.. and thousands of receptacles but very few receptacle outlets
 
M. D. said:
No wiring system ,... no outlets
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So, do you have to also get a new Certificate of Occupancy all over again, because the dwelling is not habitable with out a wiring system and is no longer a "dwelling" while the service center changeout is in progress?
 
M. D. said:
Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

No wiring system ,... no outlets
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In the last hypothetical that JWCElectric posted, the recepacle outlets are existing and not removed from the dwelling.

The Outlet is the contact that the receptacle device makes with a cord and plug. That's still there. . . .

The service center OCPD is still there, as the panel is not changed out.
 
:D

M. D.

Just so you don't accidentally miss it, there are two posts, #50 and #49.

:cool:
 
I saw them,.. once those receptacles from the last hypothetical that JWCElectric posted are removed ,they cannot , IMO ,..be reinstalled unless they are TR. Once the wiring system they are supplied by is removed they are no longer outlets at all they are simply receptacles .. I did not write it I'm just reading it.

I took him to mean that the original branch circuit wiring was to be removed & replaced .

Originally Posted by JWCELECTRIC
I get a call to rewire a home with existing outlets in areas of 210.12(B), The Client wants all new branch circuits (replacing existing branch circuits) from existing outlets installed pre 210.12(B) back to the OCPD.
Click to expand...

Edit to add ; He didn't eve mention receptacle outlets ,.. no matter,.. once the wiring is removed so too the outlet .
 
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M. D. said:
.. once the wiring is removed so too the outlet .
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What if I install the branch circuit cable first, splice the conductors into the OCPD, neutral and EGC bars (leaving it de-energized), run the new branch circuit cable into the j-boxes, and then swing one Outlet at a time from one conductor to the other? And THEN remove the original branch circuit conductors.

For a while, two branch circuits are installed. The homeowner doesn't have to reapply for a new Certificate of Occupancy. . . whew!!!

Oh the Bureaucracy!
 
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JWCELECTRIC said:
Is a light fixture, and a switch considered an outlet?
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:D

YOW!

The land mine under my foot just went off.

:rolleyes:

Seriously, JWC, the light fixture is a "Lighting Outlet" (again Article 100 Definition).

A smoke detector is a simple "Outlet" were a piece of "Utilization Equipment" is connected.

A switch. . . . well, that question resulted in a discussion that still holds the record in this Forum as the longest. 781 posts. Want to look at it? I'll post the link.
 
Na! no need to post, Just looking for clarification!

art 210.12(b) say outlets it dosen't say lighting outlets. so installed lighting outlets don't need AFCI protection?

I'm just trying to beat the crap out of this 210.12(B) art. and find the best solution for estimates that I need to pull together based on work in those areas.
 
WA state removed the guess work and clarified this in their amendments as follows:

012 Arc-fault circuit-interrupter protection.

(4) NEC 210.12(B) is amended to require AFCI protection only for dwelling unit bedroom spaces.

(a) Dwelling unit bedroom spaces include spaces that:

(i) Are used as the bedroom;

(ii) Are accessed only through the bedroom;

(iii) Are ancillary to the bedroom's function (e.g., closets, sitting areas, etc.); (iv) Contain branch circuits that supply 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere, outlets; and

(v) Are not bathrooms.

(b) If a new circuit(s) is added in an existing dwelling unit bedroom, an existing outlet(s) that is not connected to the new circuit(s) does not require arc-fault circuit interrupter protection if the outlet(s) was installed before December 1, 2005.

(c) If an existing circuit, installed before December 1, 2005, is extended, arc-fault circuit interrupter protection is not required.

(d) Arc-fault circuit interrupter protection is not required to be used for smoke or fire alarm outlets.
 
Paul,

I envy you your 012(4)(C) and 012(4)(D), if that is the way you write them. Minnesota's Electrical Licensing and Inspections Board of Electricity adopted the 2008 NEC in its pristine and unmodified form.
 
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