AFCI Testing / Diagnostic tools

[Jake7939]

I am looking for feedback on effective AFCI Diagnostic tools.
Ie. Siemens Intelli-Arc or others.

In particular, I am interested in a proven tool that you use with
confidence for troubling shooting the cause(s) of nuisance AFCI
breaker tripping.

Thank you in advance.

 

[tom baker]

Siemens tool is intended to work with Siemens AFCIs, no experience with it

UL does not approve or list any other AFCI testers, even though they available.

 

[JFletcher]

I asked the same about 9 months ago. Apparently you want to avoid the Ideal model. Discussion here:

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=173983&highlight=

 

[Tony S]

I just hope they don’t come up with a universal AFCI test meter. The UK equivalent of the NEC is trying to get them introduced but without a reliable test method they aren’t getting a very warm reception.

 

[al hildenbrand]

In particular, I am interested in a proven tool that you use with confidence for troubling shooting the cause(s) of nuisance AFCI breaker tripping.

Welcome to the Forum!

I wish there were a tool or tools that were capable of discriminating between harmful and benign arc signatures. . . But, today, still, after 15 years since the first AFCI requirement was published in the 1999 NEC, the ONLY way to test an AFCI breaker itself, that is UL approved, is to press the TEST button on the breaker.

Any other device is an "indicator", but not a "tester".

The AFCI breakers that self-report their previous trip experience with LED blink codes helps, somewhat, to hint to the troubleshooter what may be going on, but that is about all the help, hardware based, that exists.

If the AFCI doesn't trip, the branch circuit and attached loads are OK as of the moment that there is no trip. That is the UL supported test.

Each manufacturer's solution to the Grand Concept of AFCI is proprietary and ridiculously locked down behind secrecy. The behavior of the solutions is not the same, manufacturer to manufacturer.

 

[Jake7939]

Diagnostic tester

Diagnostic tester

I asked the same about 9 months ago. Apparently you want to avoid the Ideal model. Discussion here:

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=173983&highlight=

Thank you for you for the input JFLetcher, but I am not looking for a "tester."
I was interested in the Siemens Intelli-Arc because it supposedly will test
a circuit for parallel and series arching, as well as the potential for a corded
appliances for arching. All that being said about the Intelli-Arc, I still have
reservations about purchasing tools like this because manufactures claims
can often be a lot less then perfect in the field.

 

[iwire]

Info for those of us that do not know about this device

 

[mopowr steve]

Thank you for you for the input JFLetcher, but I am not looking for a "tester."
I was interested in the Siemens Intelli-Arc because it supposedly will test
a circuit for parallel and series arching, as well as the potential for a corded
appliances for arching. All that being said about the Intelli-Arc, I still have
reservations about purchasing tools like this because manufactures claims
can often be a lot less then perfect in the field.

Hi Jake,
I do have the intelliarc diagnostic tool. And I have to tell you there is definatly a learning curve on the results that are displayed and how to apply that information.
At best it can help determine causes to why an arc fault breaker is tripping as all it really shows you is the level of arcing/ground faulting and yes intererferance which is still the stickler.

I had a job a few years ago that the customer stated that arc fault breakers were randomly tripping on multiple circuits throughout the house so I connected the intelliarc tool and noticed that while changing speeds on their wall speed controls for paddle fans would create a spike that registered high on the level indicator of the intelliarc but this was a phenominum that I already warned my customers about and that could trip an arc fault I even went as far as changing brands of fan controls still the same thing. The next time they complained about tripping they said they weren't even changing speed controls so I basically camped out with them for a number of hours with my intelliarc tool and watched for erroneous readings and by god it happened, the intelliarc pegged the level display but not without noticing that the plasma screen TV in the living room went to a bright white screen durring a certain commercial. Bingo, every time the screen went to bright white it did it. And whatever interference or whatever it was showed up on all the circuits in the home. Had the homeowner change the TV and they never reported having a problem since.

 

[mopowr steve]

Info for those of us that do not know about this device

This video is cheesy

 

[iwire]

This video is cheesy

Thank you Roger Ebert.

 

[iwire]

And whatever interference or whatever it was showed up on all the circuits in the home. Had the homeowner change the TV and they never reported having a problem since.

And the NEMA reps still tell us that AFCIs are fine and it is a lack of educated installers that is the problem. :roll:

 

[Jake7939]

Case: Use of intelliarc dianogstic tool in the field

Case: Use of intelliarc dianogstic tool in the field

Hi Jake,
I do have the intelliarc dianogstic tool. And I have to tell you there is definatly a learning curve on the results that are displayed and how to apply that information.
At best it can help determine causes to why an arc fault breaker is tripping as all it really shows you is the level of arcing/ground faulting and yes intererferance which is still the stickler.

I had a job a few years ago that the customer stated that arc fault breakers were randomly tripping on multiple circuits throughout the house so I connected the intelliarc tool and noticed that while changing speeds on their wall speed controls for paddle fans would create a spike that registered high on the level indicator of the intelliarc but this was a phenominum that I already warned my customers about and that could trip an arc fault I even went as far as changing brands of fan controls still the same thing. The next time they complained about tripping they said they weren't even changing speed controls so I basically camped out with them for a number of hours with my intelliarc tool and watched for erroneous readings and by god it happened, the intelliarc pegged the level display but not without noticing that the plasma screen TV in the living room went to a bright white screen durring a certain commercial. Bingo, every time the screen went to bright white it did it. And whatever interference or whatever it was showed up on all the circuits in the home. Had the homeowner change the TV and they never reported having a problem since.

Thanks mopower. Great feed back on the use of the tool in an actual field situation.
Have you had other situations such as this where the Intelli-Arc aided in trouble
shooting the problem?

With the flat screen TV scenario it sounds like you would have been spending a lot
more time guessing as to where the problem was, as opposed to finding the true
source of the problem. So the question is: Is this tool worth it?

 

[Jake7939]

Thanks mopower. Great feed back on the use of the tool in an actual field situation.
Have you had other situations such as this where the Intelli-Arc aided in trouble
shooting the problem?

With the flat screen TV scenario it sounds like you would have been spending a lot
more time guessing as to where the problem was, as opposed to finding the true
source of the problem. So the question is: Is this tool worth it?

Thanks mopower. Great feed back on the use of the tool in an actual field situation.
Have you had other situations such as this where the Intelli-Arc aided in trouble
shooting the problem?

With the flat screen TV scenario it sounds like you would have been spending a lot
more time guessing as to where the problem was, as opposed to finding the true
source of the problem. So the question is: Is this tool worth it?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Hi Jake,
I do have the intelliarc diagnostic tool. And I have to tell you there is definatly a learning curve on the results that are displayed and how to apply that information.
At best it can help determine causes to why an arc fault breaker is tripping as all it really shows you is the level of arcing/ground faulting and yes intererferance which is still the stickler.

I had a job a few years ago that the customer stated that arc fault breakers were randomly tripping on multiple circuits throughout the house so I connected the intelliarc tool and noticed that while changing speeds on their wall speed controls for paddle fans would create a spike that registered high on the level indicator of the intelliarc but this was a phenominum that I already warned my customers about and that could trip an arc fault I even went as far as changing brands of fan controls still the same thing. The next time they complained about tripping they said they weren't even changing speed controls so I basically camped out with them for a number of hours with my intelliarc tool and watched for erroneous readings and by god it happened, the intelliarc pegged the level display but not without noticing that the plasma screen TV in the living room went to a bright white screen durring a certain commercial. Bingo, every time the screen went to bright white it did it. And whatever interference or whatever it was showed up on all the circuits in the home. Had the homeowner change the TV and they never reported having a problem since.

In my opinion since the AFCI is tripping on something that is not a fault of any type the AFCI manufacturer should be responsible for the trouble shooting costs and the cost for the replacement TV.

 

[GoldDigger]

In my opinion since the AFCI is tripping on something that is not a fault of any type the AFCI manufacturer should be responsible for the trouble shooting costs and the cost for the replacement TV.

And the AFCI manufacturer will argue back that there was obviously a defect in the TV which was not caught by UL testing. :happyyes:

 

[iwire]

And the AFCI manufacturer will argue back that there was obviously a defect in the TV which was not caught by UL testing. :happyyes:

Plot twist, GE TV and GE AFCIs.

 

[GoldDigger]

Plot twist, GE TV and GE AFCIs.

Neither division will replace their component and each will write a memo to corporate HQ to be lost.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

And the AFCI manufacturer will argue back that there was obviously a defect in the TV which was not caught by UL testing. :happyyes:

but if enough people would take them to task for things like this, maybe they would make a product that actually works.

 

[hbiss]

Had the homeowner change the TV and they never reported having a problem since.

Are you sure that they didn't just replace the AFCI breakers with a regular ones? With those fan speed controls nuisance tripping that you couldn't do anything about and now you want me to buy a new TV I would be done with you.

-Hal

 

[norcal]

Plot twist, GE TV and GE AFCIs.

GE does not make TV's anymore.

http://www.geappliances.com/ge/service-and-support/electronics.htm