electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Would a wall mount forced hot water heating unit with a blower require afci protection?
AFCI this?
- Thread starter electricmanscott
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Re: AFCI this?
Is it a dwelling unit bedroom?
Is it a 125V 15 or 20 A branch circuit?
Is it fed from an outlet?
Then yes.
Review 210.12, and definitions for outlet and branch circuit.
Is it a dwelling unit bedroom?
Is it a 125V 15 or 20 A branch circuit?
Is it fed from an outlet?
Then yes.
Review 210.12, and definitions for outlet and branch circuit.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: AFCI this?
Scott in my opinion a hard wired heater would be utilization equipment not an outlet so AFCI protection is not required.
Just a guess here, that this was not the intent of the AFCI requirement but none the less that is how it is worded.
Bob
Scott in my opinion a hard wired heater would be utilization equipment not an outlet so AFCI protection is not required.
Just a guess here, that this was not the intent of the AFCI requirement but none the less that is how it is worded.
Bob
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: AFCI this?
Tom it is a dwelling bedroom, it is a 15 amp 125 v circuit, it is fed from a circuit breaker.
Tom it is a dwelling bedroom, it is a 15 amp 125 v circuit, it is fed from a circuit breaker.
Kind of a backhander there tom wouldn't you say? Sheesh. I would hope I would know what a branch circuit is at this point. As for an outlet I wouldn't consider this to be one but I thought I'd get some opinions.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: AFCI this?
Originally posted by tonyi:
Its as much an outlet as the notorious smoke detectors are
Smoke detectors, light fixtures and wall mounted heaters are all utilization equipment.
However the smoke detectors like light fixtures are mounted to an outlet box. The outlet falls under the AFCI requirement.
The wall mounted heater has no outlet box, the wiring method goes directly into the heater, no outlet box no AFCI.
Bob
[ October 28, 2003, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Re: AFCI this?
Iwire it does not have to have a box to be an outlet:
Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
Toni: Not backhanded at all. You have to know the definition to know how to apply the NEC. Look at the misunderstanding of outlet.
This question comes up a lot on the forum. My answer is essentially boilerplate. I don't know the posters understanding of the NEC. In my opinion the most important 3 parts of the NEC are:
1. Section 90.3
2. Article 100
3. Article 110
(Footnote-what I try to do in my answers is to get the poster to look at the NEC - hopefully they have one- and understand what it is really saying. We all tend to read things into the NEC that are not there)
[ October 28, 2003, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: tom baker ]
Iwire it does not have to have a box to be an outlet:
Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
Toni: Not backhanded at all. You have to know the definition to know how to apply the NEC. Look at the misunderstanding of outlet.
This question comes up a lot on the forum. My answer is essentially boilerplate. I don't know the posters understanding of the NEC. In my opinion the most important 3 parts of the NEC are:
1. Section 90.3
2. Article 100
3. Article 110
(Footnote-what I try to do in my answers is to get the poster to look at the NEC - hopefully they have one- and understand what it is really saying. We all tend to read things into the NEC that are not there)
[ October 28, 2003, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: tom baker ]
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Re: AFCI this?
Since we are discussing a branch circuit and its definitions, lets take a stab at this:
Does a 12-3 UF with ground to a pump well house (wired as a 120/240 V multiwire branch circuit) require a disconnecting means - a panelboard, in other words, with a main breaker?
Since we are discussing a branch circuit and its definitions, lets take a stab at this:
Does a 12-3 UF with ground to a pump well house (wired as a 120/240 V multiwire branch circuit) require a disconnecting means - a panelboard, in other words, with a main breaker?
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: AFCI this?
"Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment." Well that clears it up. :roll:
"Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment." Well that clears it up. :roll:
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: AFCI this?
All electrical equipment that is served by a wiring system is connected to an outlet. It is simply the point of connection between the building wiring system and the equipment itself. A box is not required.
Don
All electrical equipment that is served by a wiring system is connected to an outlet. It is simply the point of connection between the building wiring system and the equipment itself. A box is not required.
Don
tonyi
Senior Member
Re: AFCI this?
Outlet . A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
Utilization Equipment . Equipment that utilizes electric energy for electronic, electromechanical, chemical, heating, lighting, or similar purposes
By your logic, a light or smoke detector mounted to an octagon in the ceiling isn't really an "outlet" in the bedroom because the connections would occur above the plane of the ceiling and the device just happens to protrude in like the heater.
I don't buy it.
Article 100Originally posted by iwire:
The wall mounted heater has no outlet box, the wiring method goes directly into the heater, no outlet box no AFCI.
Outlet . A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
Utilization Equipment . Equipment that utilizes electric energy for electronic, electromechanical, chemical, heating, lighting, or similar purposes
By your logic, a light or smoke detector mounted to an octagon in the ceiling isn't really an "outlet" in the bedroom because the connections would occur above the plane of the ceiling and the device just happens to protrude in like the heater.
I don't buy it.
ceb
Senior Member
- Location
- raeford,nc
Re: AFCI this?
IMO Iwire is correct.A point on the wiring system at which current is TAKEN to supply utilization equpt. You cannot take current from a smoke detc. Every thing I have seen on the whole reasoning behind afci was to protect from frayed cords due to furniture being placed on them and other damage.To me the word taken would infer that I would plug something into the recpt. and take the current to some type of equpt. via a cord. Go ahead and let me have it I'm a big boy
IMO Iwire is correct.A point on the wiring system at which current is TAKEN to supply utilization equpt. You cannot take current from a smoke detc. Every thing I have seen on the whole reasoning behind afci was to protect from frayed cords due to furniture being placed on them and other damage.To me the word taken would infer that I would plug something into the recpt. and take the current to some type of equpt. via a cord. Go ahead and let me have it I'm a big boy
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: AFCI this?
CEB: Put your ammeter around the feed to the smoke detector and you will find that the reading changes when it goes into alarm. Not much, but any change is current being taken. Smoke detectors are outlets. Same thing as a light.
Also, there have been some intersting articles in IAEI News that state that AFCI's don't do as well at protecting cords as they were expected to do, but they do a better job of protecting the branch circuit than they were expected to do.
Bob: What about a flourescant light that doesn't use a box and just accepts an NM cable into the back of it? I still have to call it an outlet.
CEB: Put your ammeter around the feed to the smoke detector and you will find that the reading changes when it goes into alarm. Not much, but any change is current being taken. Smoke detectors are outlets. Same thing as a light.
Also, there have been some intersting articles in IAEI News that state that AFCI's don't do as well at protecting cords as they were expected to do, but they do a better job of protecting the branch circuit than they were expected to do.
Bob: What about a flourescant light that doesn't use a box and just accepts an NM cable into the back of it? I still have to call it an outlet.
ceb
Senior Member
- Location
- raeford,nc
Re: AFCI this?
Ok, Ryan the glove are off. The power is being use not taken. The power doesn't leave the detector and travel to a lamp and turn it on.
Ok, Ryan the glove are off. The power is being use not taken. The power doesn't leave the detector and travel to a lamp and turn it on.
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Re: AFCI this?
The issue of smokes on the AFCI circuit in a dwelling unit was discussed at length at the IAEI meeting in Orlando, in Sept 2003, by Alan Marche, CMP member. He stated it was clearly the CMP's intent to have the smoke detector (that is installed at an outlet) on the AFCI.
Basically if the electrical device is fed at 125 V 15 or 20 amps in a dwelling unit bedroom is is to be on an AFCI unless local codes dictate otherwise, outlet, device box or hardwired.
[ October 29, 2003, 12:15 AM: Message edited by: tom baker ]
The issue of smokes on the AFCI circuit in a dwelling unit was discussed at length at the IAEI meeting in Orlando, in Sept 2003, by Alan Marche, CMP member. He stated it was clearly the CMP's intent to have the smoke detector (that is installed at an outlet) on the AFCI.
Basically if the electrical device is fed at 125 V 15 or 20 amps in a dwelling unit bedroom is is to be on an AFCI unless local codes dictate otherwise, outlet, device box or hardwired.
[ October 29, 2003, 12:15 AM: Message edited by: tom baker ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: AFCI this?
Originally posted by iwire:
That's my story and I am sticking to it.
If we call the point where NM ends an outlet, wouldn't a feed brought to a switch in the bedroom to feed a light elsewhere need to be AFCI?
The outlet definition does not say the final point.
I run a NM from a panel and come up short and I add a J Box and continue on to supply utilization equipment.
Is that NM from the panel in the J Box an outlet?
It is a point where current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
IMO The definition should say something like the following.
"The final point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment."
The way the definition is now I have always taken it to mean that an "outlet" is something the end user deals with, receptacles or light sockets.
If I read it to mean any point that power is taken it gets a little broad.
[ October 29, 2003, 03:57 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: AFCI this?
ceb,
Don
ceb,
You are correct that you don't "take" current from the smoke detector, but the smoke detector "takes" current from the building wiring system. The point at which the smoke detector is connected to the building wiring system is the outlet.
Don
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: AFCI this?
Bob,
Don
Bob,
No, the power is not being directly supplied to the load at that point in the circuit.
Don
tonyi
Senior Member
Re: AFCI this?
Consider what the implications of using switch/pilot or lighted switches for say some outside floods not fed by anything related to other bedroom outlet branches.
Does the presense of the neon/LED indicator suddenly make that switch an outlet in the bedroom now that actual power is being drawn by the switch?
Now to make the discussion real interesting...
Consider what the implications of using switch/pilot or lighted switches for say some outside floods not fed by anything related to other bedroom outlet branches.
Does the presense of the neon/LED indicator suddenly make that switch an outlet in the bedroom now that actual power is being drawn by the switch?
Re: AFCI this?
Tony, see definition of Utilization Equipment in article 100 page 39 of the 02 NEC. There is "electrical energy" being used to illuminate the switch.
With that determinined, it would simply be an outlet, so it would be best to put the light on the bed room circuit, otherwise you could feed the switch from the AFCI protected circuit and operate a relay from it.
Now, I think "ALL" load centers and panels should be in BR's :roll:
Roger
Tony, see definition of Utilization Equipment in article 100 page 39 of the 02 NEC. There is "electrical energy" being used to illuminate the switch.
With that determinined, it would simply be an outlet, so it would be best to put the light on the bed room circuit, otherwise you could feed the switch from the AFCI protected circuit and operate a relay from it.
Now, I think "ALL" load centers and panels should be in BR's :roll:
Roger
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