Hse 1 yr. old. Afci breaker jury rigged, nuet. tail hidden behing other wires unconnected, branch circuit neutral connected to neut bar. I didn't even know an AF breaker would work like this. Home insp. picked up on this for a hse. sale insp. this was original done buy builders electrician, nice, huh? So,I separate wiring in switch box I think the home run lands in and breaker doesn't trip. I connect one RX at a time until I find the one that trips it, thinking I'll find the fault ther. Turns out three outgoing RX trip the breaker. this is a bedrm circuit. So, I leave them disconnected and reconnect the wires that were not tripping the breaker earlier and now they also trip it. Bitch! Had to leave at that point, to return Saturday.Anybody shed some light on this maybe. I have not really deakt with AFCI really much. Ive reaf someone on here mentioned eaton AFCI br are approved for ll panels, I'm working with a sqD HL panel. Any help much appreciated
AFCI troubleshoot nightmare
- Thread starter joebeadg
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DrSparks
The Everlasting Know-it-all!
- Location
- Madison, WI, USA
- Occupation
- Master Electrician and General Contractor
Wow, your text is very difficult to understand. I’m not sure what your problem is, but I can answer your latter question. Only Eaton type CL (UL classified) breakers are approved for other new and obsolete panels. They are, of course,more expensive. Good luck my friend.
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ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
What is RX?
JFletcher
Senior Member
- Location
- Williamsburg, VA
The original afci breaker was probably bypassed because the original installer made a wiring error in the house somewhere, and did not want to fix it. An afci breaker will not trip on an arc fault if the neutrals are wired the way you said they were.
There are quite a few ways to troubleshoot this, first being replacement of the arc fault breaker. However, since it was bypassed originally, I do not believe that will solve your issue.
Look for telltale signs of sloppy work, there may be a receptacle or switch pushed back in a box with the ground wire touching the neutral screw. You can tell if this is the case by removing the ground and neutral wires from the bus bars and checking for continuity between them. Neutrals of different circuits being tied together on switch boxes is another common culprit
Troubleshooting afci Breakers can be very time-intensive. We had a case last year where a remodel contractor wanted them for the aluminum wiring in the building. Time to install afci Breakers: 10 minutes. Time to find where the neutrals were crossed up in three separate places: 4 hours.
There are quite a few ways to troubleshoot this, first being replacement of the arc fault breaker. However, since it was bypassed originally, I do not believe that will solve your issue.
Look for telltale signs of sloppy work, there may be a receptacle or switch pushed back in a box with the ground wire touching the neutral screw. You can tell if this is the case by removing the ground and neutral wires from the bus bars and checking for continuity between them. Neutrals of different circuits being tied together on switch boxes is another common culprit
Troubleshooting afci Breakers can be very time-intensive. We had a case last year where a remodel contractor wanted them for the aluminum wiring in the building. Time to install afci Breakers: 10 minutes. Time to find where the neutrals were crossed up in three separate places: 4 hours.
JFletcher
Senior Member
- Location
- Williamsburg, VA
I'm pretty sure it's shorthand for Romex, though with talk to text, there is really no telling what the original poster said that got mistranslated. He could have said something that sounded like "prescription", and it changed it into Rx...
I gathered that he has multiple circuits in the panel that are tripping on an afci breaker, though it doesn't make any sense to me why you would investigate other circuits that are working when only one breaker was apparently wired incorrectly.
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Edited to add... just because the panel is a year old does not tell us anything about what generation of Square D homeline afci breaker the original poster has. For all we know the original electrician could have had it that sitting in his truck bouncing around for a couple of years. Swapping it with a known good unit, if there is such a thing, may still be prudent. $40 for the cost of a new breaker maybe a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of time it will take to get everything right, and if it's not the breaker, no loss.
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ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
Ah, yes. Romex.
I hope this is a T&M job although there won’t be much for material.
I agree with JP, use a tester to check for the neutral to EG faults and look for mixed neutrals with other circuits. All the white wires do not necessarily connect together in every box.
Sounds like the fun I would let my help have.
I hope this is a T&M job although there won’t be much for material.
I agree with JP, use a tester to check for the neutral to EG faults and look for mixed neutrals with other circuits. All the white wires do not necessarily connect together in every box.
Sounds like the fun I would let my help have.
Guys,
The OP is only having a problem with one AfCI breaker. Only one....
OP said:
",I separate wiring in switch box I think the home run lands in and breaker doesn't trip."
" I connect one RX at a time until I find the one that trips it, thinking I'll find the fault ther." (RX = Romex.)
"Turns out three outgoing RX trip the breaker. this is a bedrm circuit."
I believe the OP is referring to wiring that is part of the original AFCI breaker branch circuit wiring. Outgoing from the "switch box".
"So, I leave them disconnected and reconnect the wires that were not tripping the breaker earlier and now they also trip it."
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
OP: How many Romex neutrals were supposed to be connected together under the faulty wirenut? You should have an equal #of Hots to that CB.
Remember, if you are sharing a neutral with another circuit you may have some voltage on that Neutral when you remove it from the neutral connection.
Remember, if you are sharing a neutral with another circuit you may have some voltage on that Neutral when you remove it from the neutral connection.
- Location
- Tennessee NEC:2017
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrician
Sounds like there were no circuits not working, then a HI came and tested the AFCI with the push button and it didn't trip. Now when connecting it correctly (pigtail on neutral bar-load neutral on breaker) it trips. Someone else mentioned the AFCI was probably abandoned. I agree it probably was and a regular breaker was added but leaving the AFCI in the panel. But I can't understand how there would be two load wires, one to each breaker. Unless two circuits were combined, then there would be two load wires. Now if both the regular breaker is connected along with the AFCI, the circuits are backfeeding each other.
But all that, if true, doesn't solve the fact that there is a wiring error somewhere that needs to be corrected. Disconnect the EGC and neutral in the panel and check for continuity between the neutral and EGC. If you have continuity then you know there is a gnd/neutral touching somewhere either by accident or a staple or nail. Then you would need to disconnect everything connected with that circuit and start checking until you find the problem.
If possible, without tearing up walls/ceilings, it might be faster to just run a new circuit if the problem is in the home run, or in a wall between boxes.
But all that, if true, doesn't solve the fact that there is a wiring error somewhere that needs to be corrected. Disconnect the EGC and neutral in the panel and check for continuity between the neutral and EGC. If you have continuity then you know there is a gnd/neutral touching somewhere either by accident or a staple or nail. Then you would need to disconnect everything connected with that circuit and start checking until you find the problem.
If possible, without tearing up walls/ceilings, it might be faster to just run a new circuit if the problem is in the home run, or in a wall between boxes.
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
Another anagram to deal with. :happyno:
The real question is why is he saying that three Romex trip the breaker? Is it three hot conductors , neutrals or grounds?
I'm with others that think the neutrals of a couple circuits may have gotten crossed in one of the switch junction boxes.
afci
afci
Yes, what jamesco said. OK it is only one circuit affected. The wires I separated were in what I believe is the first JB the homerun lands in. RX is romex,NMC. So,I was expecting to find ONE outgoing piece of RX going out from that first switchbox to be the culprit, and then troubleshoot that portion of the circuit. But three outgoing runs of RX tripped the breaker.. There were a couple outgoing runs that AT FIRST did not trip the breaker. But when I reconnected them, now THEY even tripped the breaker. So, the problem is is changing begore my eyes as I work on it! LOL Maybe intermitant gr. to neutral short, and oh yes, I did find continuity at panel between neut and gr. I also found a few recs. with gr. shorted to neut screw on recs. What balls for the original electrician to do this! Sorry for the confusing write up, but its the best way I can think to explain it. My thought is maybe run new homerun, maybe just lay it out through house on floor first to test then install properly, but don't want to be bit in the ass if it acts up again after install, being the problem is intermitant. Thank you guys
afci
Yes, what jamesco said. OK it is only one circuit affected. The wires I separated were in what I believe is the first JB the homerun lands in. RX is romex,NMC. So,I was expecting to find ONE outgoing piece of RX going out from that first switchbox to be the culprit, and then troubleshoot that portion of the circuit. But three outgoing runs of RX tripped the breaker.. There were a couple outgoing runs that AT FIRST did not trip the breaker. But when I reconnected them, now THEY even tripped the breaker. So, the problem is is changing begore my eyes as I work on it! LOL Maybe intermitant gr. to neutral short, and oh yes, I did find continuity at panel between neut and gr. I also found a few recs. with gr. shorted to neut screw on recs. What balls for the original electrician to do this! Sorry for the confusing write up, but its the best way I can think to explain it. My thought is maybe run new homerun, maybe just lay it out through house on floor first to test then install properly, but don't want to be bit in the ass if it acts up again after install, being the problem is intermitant. Thank you guys
No, the OP said the pigtail of the AFCI breaker was disconnected from the neutral bar. The neutral wire of the branch circuit had been connected directly to the neutral bar. The AFCI breaker would then only function as a regular OCPD.
Because the OP says he found the home run at an outlet box, "switch box", then he can start looking for the fault on each the branches that leave the box checking for neutral to EGC continuity, as you and others have suggested.
But before he starts, I would suggest he turn off the breaker that feeds the circuit and make himself a map showing every outlet receptacle as well as ceiling lighting and ceiling fan/s that are fed from the circuit. It is possible the neutral to EGC fault connection could be in a fixture or ceiling fan/fan light combo. Could be a pinched neutral to grd connection.
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kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
You must eliminate all N-G faults before doing anything else. Run a temp load on the home run - if it holds it probably doesn't need replaced, one or more of the three branches off the home run have issues in them, but again until you make sure to eliminate all N-G faults - you will have problems.
If you have Homeline AFCI's the newer generation has a procedure to tell if it tripped from arc fault or ground fault function.
JFletcher
Senior Member
- Location
- Williamsburg, VA
Finding multiple problems is always fun. if you believe you've isolated the homerun, a simple continuity check (well, three of them) should suffice for troubleshooting that part. Replacing the Home Run will only do good if there is a fault in that section of cable.
you will have to find everything on that circuit, every device, every light, every smoke detector and find all places where neutrals and grounds are touching. at least that's easy enough, when you pull a device out of a box and straighten the wires usually correct the problem, careful folding of the wires and installation of the device will ensure the problem does not repeat itself. Good luck... And don't forget that if you believe you have isolated all problems and the breaker still trips, replace the breaker.
you will have to find everything on that circuit, every device, every light, every smoke detector and find all places where neutrals and grounds are touching. at least that's easy enough, when you pull a device out of a box and straighten the wires usually correct the problem, careful folding of the wires and installation of the device will ensure the problem does not repeat itself. Good luck... And don't forget that if you believe you have isolated all problems and the breaker still trips, replace the breaker.
afci
afci
but the problem is changing before my eyes while working on it, frustrating! Since some, then all the wires outgoing from that sw box are tripping it, I'm suspecting intermiant gr to neut short in home run. Going back sat. Not looking forward to it. Because its the kind of job that the customer wonders if u know what the f ur doing!!! lol
afci
but the problem is changing before my eyes while working on it, frustrating! Since some, then all the wires outgoing from that sw box are tripping it, I'm suspecting intermiant gr to neut short in home run. Going back sat. Not looking forward to it. Because its the kind of job that the customer wonders if u know what the f ur doing!!! lol
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Temp homerun just laying on the floor is one way to verify the homerun has an issue. If you have a megger, meg that home run if it passes basic continuity test for faulting. Again if a newer generation breaker perform the test to verify which function the breaker is tripping on.
Loading and non loading also impact when it will trip on AFCI function.
Before you left the job you should have capped off the feed, home run, in the box and left the breaker turned on until Saturday. Come Saturday if the breaker is not tripped then there is a high probability the home run wiring is ok.
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
That job is even better because you weren't responsible for the install. They still look at you crosswise and consider it your fault. I'll be thinking, briefly, about you while I'm drinking a beer on Saturday.
A continuity tester may work for your first tests but as Kwire suggests a megger would be better. Just don't nail the TV with it.
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
Time for a new toy!!
- Status