AFCI with panel change

[readydave8]

So now tell us just what are the results of no license , permits or inspections ? Do most follow NEC or just wire however they care to ? .

I know the answer.

My local area did not start inspections on stick built until the late 90's.

I often go on calls to houses built before the inspection era, sometimes very expensive houses.

Wiring ranges from horrible to excellent.

Electrical inspections of new houses has not made all unsafe wiring stop being done, but seems to have helped. Our inspectors are multi-trade but at least are finding the most obvious code violations.

And even a few of their own ideas of what should be in the NEC but isn't.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I would think that with the lack of inspections that would fall short of NEC simply because they won't get caught. This might easily be a lack of arc faults or GFI.
I have worked for both kinds of electrical companies. Last one had my respect because my orders were do it to code even if not inspected.
Many places years ago never required much in the way of license ,permits and inspections.I think by now they see the results. Its like putting up speed signs but have no cops to patrole.

 

[gaelectric]

Here in CO more and more of the smaller towns are hiring an inspecting agency to get around the cost of hiring their own inspectors. One outfit in particular.

I pulled a permit for a service change in one of these localities and found out that they were requiring the house to have AFCI protection as if it had been wired by 2008 NEC. Not just the bedrooms. Pretty tough on a 35 year old house.

I wrote to the State and was told that it was not a state requirement. I contacted several other AHJ as well. No one but these guys were asking for that. The trouble is, that due to the fact it was this inspecting contractor that was inspecting, there was not really anyone to go to above them. The municipality stood behind them 100%.

No profit on that job as the price had been agreed upon beforehand. Live and learn.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Here in CO more and more of the smaller towns are hiring an inspecting agency to get around the cost of hiring their own inspectors. One outfit in particular.

I pulled a permit for a service change in one of these localities and found out that they were requiring the house to have AFCI protection as if it had been wired by 2008 NEC. Not just the bedrooms. Pretty tough on a 35 year old house.

I wrote to the State and was told that it was not a state requirement. I contacted several other AHJ as well. No one but these guys were asking for that. The trouble is, that due to the fact it was this inspecting contractor that was inspecting, there was not really anyone to go to above them. The municipality stood behind them 100%.

No profit on that job as the price had been agreed upon beforehand. Live and learn.

Did they have a wriiten amendment if not you could go after them. Only had to deal with a town like this once. They are there own city (st leo) and sub out inspections. The guy spent 4 hours on final of a new house. Sited me for a cooktop that was straight 240 no neutral. I had 4 wires in junction box under the cabinet but he demanded the factory whip have a neutral. Wasn't worth tieing up the job to fight in court so I shut the ID 10 T up by having my helper add a white #10 in the whip and just wire nut it off in the unit. Solved nothing ,did nothing.
Best way to handle small towns is take them to court. That will cost them funds they simply do not have.

 

[growler]

I'm curious what others think about this requirement to retroactively require AFCIs on existing circuits when a panel is changed. I don't see how the code can be interpreted to require this. We can't possibly know about existing faults on every circuit of an 80y/o house.

When I change out a service I'm very specific about what is included in the price and anything else that required ( by authorities ) is to be billed as additional work.

I think that if required you should install the AFCIs but any trouble-shooting or rewireing to make them function properly should be billed as additional work. Once they are installed the service should pass inspection because they are installed and working properly ( they are tripped ). I don't think it should be your problem to rewire the house. The homeowner can hire anyone he wants to for that.

 

[jwelectric]

What and how I teach future electricians
Changing out a service does nothing for the wiring system of the building. This wiring system is in the same shape as the service and needs just as much attention as the service.

When doing service work any existing code violation that is present should and will be called out so as the electrician it is your responsibility to point this out before submitting a bid. What type of reputation do you think you are building should every time you do work it requires more than you have bid on?

Should there be an existing code violation that you don?t address at the time of your work and the inspector points it out then thank that inspector for pointing out this life safety issue and get to work fixing the issue
In this case the home owner hired a professional to repair something for a price. The profession overlooked an expensive issue which he did not address in the original bid so it shouldn?t be the burden of the homeowner who hired this professional in good faith. It should be the burden of the professional that didn?t follow through to know the issue that would be addressed. The problem is on the professional not the homeowner not the inspector.

 

[macmikeman]

What and how I teach future electricians
Changing out a service does nothing for the wiring system of the building. This wiring system is in the same shape as the service and needs just as much attention as the service.

When doing service work any existing code violation that is present should and will be called out so as the electrician it is your responsibility to point this out before submitting a bid. What type of reputation do you think you are building should every time you do work it requires more than you have bid on?

Should there be an existing code violation that you don?t address at the time of your work and the inspector points it out then thank that inspector for pointing out this life safety issue and get to work fixing the issue
In this case the home owner hired a professional to repair something for a price. The profession overlooked an expensive issue which he did not address in the original bid so it shouldn?t be the burden of the homeowner who hired this professional in good faith. It should be the burden of the professional that didn?t follow through to know the issue that would be addressed. The problem is on the professional not the homeowner not the inspector.

I am going to keep this in mind next time I take my wife's car in to get the wiper blades changed. Maybe I can print it and show it to the manager of the auto repair shop. How could he have possibly missed the failing o-ring inside the automatic transmission? He is supposed to be a pro auto technician. So therefore the replacement of the entire transmission should be done for no cost to me since he only changed the wiper blades and didn't say a word about the tranny. :roll:

 

[cowboyjwc]

I don't disagree with JW. Why do you change out a service? Simply because it's old? Maybe you're adding a pool or AC and the panel is to small? Many people upgrade it because the lights are dimming and then still don't do anything with the existing circuits. I bet if you looked at the cause of electrical fires that very few are atributed to the service panel.

Now do I think that you need to add AFCI's when you do a service change? NO.

Do I think that someone should call the state and have them look into what Oakland is asking for? YES

Do I think anyone will do it? NO

 

[macmikeman]

I agree as well that simply changing a service is not a cure all for other problems that the customer may have or will possibly have soon. Matter of fact I always try to explain that carefully first before even submitting a proposal to do the work. The proposal spells that out as well. What I do have a problem with is the idea that somehow I must troubleshoot all the circuits out prior to submitting a bid to change the service, in order to know if afci's will work on each required circuit or not. Each to his own opinion, but if thats the case then I suggest it is the responsibility of the local electrical inspector to go out first and determine the situation prior to the homeowner calling for bids, so its a professional bid request with nothing overlooked by the homeowner.... Hows that?

 

[Sierrasparky]

I don't disagree with JW. Why do you change out a service? Simply because it's old? Maybe you're adding a pool or AC and the panel is to small? Many people upgrade it because the lights are dimming and then still don't do anything with the existing circuits. I bet if you looked at the cause of electrical fires that very few are atributed to the service panel.

Now do I think that you need to add AFCI's when you do a service change? NO.

Do I think that someone should call the state and have them look into what Oakland is asking for? YES

Do I think anyone will do it? NO

Most of my panel change-outs are because of burned buss bars. not because of overloads but due to poor connections and or Aluminum wire.
Should we have to add AFCI breakers.

What if that panel is moved to a new location Then what?

What if an outlet or two are added to the circuit then what AFCI?

 

[Sierrasparky]

I don't disagree with JW. Why do you change out a service? Simply because it's old? Maybe you're adding a pool or AC and the panel is to small? Many people upgrade it because the lights are dimming and then still don't do anything with the existing circuits. I bet if you looked at the cause of electrical fires that very few are atributed to the service panel.

Now do I think that you need to add AFCI's when you do a service change? NO.

Do I think that someone should call the state and have them look into what Oakland is asking for? YES

Do I think anyone will do it? NO

Most of my panel change-outs are because of burned buss bars. not because of overloads but due to poor connections and or Aluminum wire.
Should we have to add AFCI breakers.

What if that panel is moved to a new location Then what?

What if an outlet or two are added to the circuit then what AFCI?

 

[growler]

What I do have a problem with is the idea that somehow I must troubleshoot all the circuits out prior to submitting a bid to change the service, in order to know if afci's will work on each required circuit or not.

I don't know of anyone that does this so if you did it then you would be the only one.

I'm not sure where these ideas come form. :grin:

 

[jwelectric]

I am going to keep this in mind next time I take my wife's car in to get the wiper blades changed. Maybe I can print it and show it to the manager of the auto repair shop. How could he have possibly missed the failing o-ring inside the automatic transmission? He is supposed to be a pro auto technician. So therefore the replacement of the entire transmission should be done for no cost to me since he only changed the wiper blades and didn't say a word about the tranny. :roll:

Don't go from one extreme to another.

I will never go somewhere I don't know the adopted minimum housing codes and not ask questions. Only a fool would do this. Just because a state adopts the NEC does not mean that from city to city amendment can't be added.

Now I have said that my ignorance should not cost the homeowner and your ignorance of adopted minimum housing standards should not cost the homeowner simply because you didn't do what you should have done either.

If you didn?t check to see if there are any amendments in that city and they are pointed out on inspection it would be wrong to tell the homeowner that because of you slack business skills it is going to cost more than the original bid. As Larry would say, ?get her done?

 

[jwelectric]

I don't know of anyone that does this so if you did it then you would be the only one.

I'm not sure where these ideas come form. :grin:

I look at every thing electrical when I do a remodel bid of any kind. It is good business practice.
I point out every life safety issue I find and all code violations. I let the homeowner know up front what this small job might end up costing.

I have lost jobs to lower bids that in the end cost the homeowner more than what my bid was by the time they got a CO.

Some of these same people have called me back knowing that I am a high-end bidder and ask no one else to bid their work after being bitten by the cost plus final.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Most of my panel change-outs are because of burned buss bars. not because of overloads but due to poor connections and or Aluminum wire.
Should we have to add AFCI breakers.

What if that panel is moved to a new location Then what?

What if an outlet or two are added to the circuit then what AFCI?

Well for some reason we don't see to many burned buss bars. Just a lot of service chages. I don't ask why they are changing it, I just inspect it.

A service change is a service change whether it's in the same location or moved.

Don't care to much about adding an outlet or two off of an existing circuit, the AFCI is to protect the branch circuit. (I know I will get flack for this answer).

 

[growler]

I look at every thing electrical when I do a remodel bid of any kind. It is good business practice.
I point out every life safety issue I find and all code violations. I let the homeowner know up front what this small job might end up costing.

So you make yourself responsible for the whole house every time you do a bathroom remodel by stating that you have inspected the house and found it free of code violations or stating all violations found.

I do the exact opposite, I state that the only areas of concern are the bathroom and that only the bath is permitted and inspected and that there has been no inspection of the building wiring performed.

I may try to up-sell the owner on other things but on paper the scope of work and responsibility are as limited as I can make it.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

By forcing the added cost of arc faults what we end up with is panels that need changed because of bus bar damage that don't get repaired or an unpermited replacement. Neither are good way to go.
We might have an old FPE panel that for reasons we all know should be replaced. Now if we add arc faults we just raised the cost to unaffordable. We simply can not bring everything up to the 08 NEC.
I do not blame the inspector as he is enforcing NEC along with local codes. I would demand to see a copy of the local amendment. If it is not available then we take legal action or they back down. If it is in writing you have a much harder battle that might not be worth the cost.

 

[jwelectric]

So you make yourself responsible for the whole house every time you do a bathroom remodel by stating that you have inspected the house and found it free of code violations or stating all violations found.

My responsibility starts and ends with the work I perform. What I do not do is end up in a debate with the inspector who is only doing his job and the homeowner about something I did not do. To ensure that this is what happens I make a visual inspection of the existing wiring and point out any defects that I see at that time to the homeowner.

This is not the question at hand. The question at hand has to do with someone going to a new jurisdiction without checking to see if any minimum housing codes have been adopted then wanting to pass this added cost on to the homeowner. This I would never do for any reason. My mistake will never cost you.

 

[acrwc10]

My responsibility starts and ends with the work I perform. What I do not do is end up in a debate with the inspector who is only doing his job and the homeowner about something I did not do. To ensure that this is what happens I make a visual inspection of the existing wiring and point out any defects that I see at that time to the homeowner.

This is not the question at hand. The question at hand has to do with someone going to a new jurisdiction without checking to see if any minimum housing codes have been adopted then wanting to pass this added cost on to the homeowner. This I would never do for any reason. My mistake will never cost you.

What about the things you can't see ? like a neutral grabbed off of a different circuit. And wasn't it you that said:

"When doing service work any existing code violation that is present should and will be called out so as the electrician it is your responsibility to point this out before submitting a bid. What type of reputation do you think you are building should every time you do work it requires more than you have bid on?

Should there be an existing code violation that you don?t address at the time of your work and the inspector points it out then thank that inspector for pointing out this life safety issue and get to work fixing the issue "

Not all code violations are "life safety issues", and there is no way of predicting what an inspector is going to limit his inspection to.

 

[macmikeman]

What about the things you can't see ? like a neutral grabbed off of a different circuit. And wasn't it you that said:

"When doing service work any existing code violation that is present should and will be called out so as the electrician it is your responsibility to point this out before submitting a bid. What type of reputation do you think you are building should every time you do work it requires more than you have bid on?

Should there be an existing code violation that you don’t address at the time of your work and the inspector points it out then thank that inspector for pointing out this life safety issue and get to work fixing the issue "

Not all code violations are "life safety issues", and there is no way of predicting what an inspector is going to limit his inspection to.

That is the statement I was getting fired up about. But JW - its a moot point for me, I handle it quite well in my proposals- Not responsible for any existing defect in the existing wiring of the dwelling, nor any existing lapse in code compliancy, nor any imposed extra work desired by the inspection authority that goes beyond the work scope described herein. Any of the above is excluded from the contract and must be paid in addition to the contract price.