AFCI (yes again)

Status
Not open for further replies.
JDB3 said:
I sure am glad :( that the NEC makes all of this as clear as "mud" !!:jawdrop:
Click to expand...

Like it or not it is getting clearer as time goes on - we are at a point where the list of what doesn't require AFCI is really a pretty short list.

GFCI is kind of simpler then it once was as well. If outdoors or within 6 feet of a sink there isn't much to question anymore, plus in most any space with concrete or dirt for a floor in/at a dwelling (I did say most, there are occasional exceptions) . Dwelling kitchens only slightly more complicated when it comes to GFCI, plus all bath receptacles.
 
}}} GFCI is kind of simpler then it once was as well. If outdoors or within 6 feet of a sink there isn't much to question anymore, plus in most any space with concrete or dirt for a floor in/at a dwelling (I did say most, there are occasional exceptions) . Dwelling kitchens only slightly more complicated when it comes to GFCI, plus all bath receptacles. {{{

Need to kind-of watch, talking about concrete floor in a dwelling. Some of the houses (dwellings) that I do, have a stained floor in them. Some of these are 3,200 square feet or so & rather nice custom homes.
 
JDB3 said:
}}} GFCI is kind of simpler then it once was as well. If outdoors or within 6 feet of a sink there isn't much to question anymore, plus in most any space with concrete or dirt for a floor in/at a dwelling (I did say most, there are occasional exceptions) . Dwelling kitchens only slightly more complicated when it comes to GFCI, plus all bath receptacles. {{{

Need to kind-of watch, talking about concrete floor in a dwelling. Some of the houses (dwellings) that I do, have a stained floor in them. Some of these are 3,200 square feet or so & rather nice custom homes.
Click to expand...
Exactly why I added:"(I did say most, there are occasional exceptions)":happyyes:
 
I will never understand this. Why cant CMP just say all 120 volts 15 and 20 amp circuits within a dwelling shall have 30ma ground fault protection and leave it at that? Same fire protection without guess work or nuisance tripping.
 
mbrooke said:
I will never understand this. Why cant CMP just say all 120 volts 15 and 20 amp circuits within a dwelling shall have 30ma ground fault protection and leave it at that? Same fire protection without guess work or nuisance tripping.
Click to expand...
Because the AFCI manufacturers spent a lot of time and $$$ to get a non perfected product as a required item into the NEC in the first place:roll:
 
kwired said:
Because the AFCI manufacturers spent a lot of time and $$$ to get a non perfected product as a required item into the NEC in the first place:roll:
Click to expand...

:lol: Yes they did. And because its "special" AFCI technology they can charge a premium price:rant:
 
FREEBALL said:
ok I went over 15 minutes had laundry working real simple after I typed a long addition. 210.8 fig 210.44 states outlets supplying dishwashers need gfci but receptacles don't?????. the authors comment states that receptacles that serve dishwashers don't require GFCI. Anybody have the NEC handbook and MIKE HOLTS BOOK that can give an educated opinion on this

Thanx
Be safe
Click to expand...


210.8(D):

"Kitchen Dishwasher Branch Circuit. GFCI protection shall be provided for outlets that supply dishwashers installed in dwelling unit locations".

Dishwashers in dwelling units require GFI protection. That seems pretty clear!

Merry Christmas.
 
FREEBALL said:
ok that is what I was leading to it states within "arc measurement" not just 6 ft. but also the authors comment stated no gfi needed for recpts. for built in dishwashers. this is under 210.8 6. now the illustration in 210.11 is listed fig. 210-44 referencing 210.8 d but says dwelling and states outlets supplying dishwashers must be gfci. Im not trying to defend an install, but really want to substantiate the handbook. Im not trying to cause controversy but is there something in here we are all missing. I know an arc of a circle is on a horizontal plane, regarding countertop placement, so this wording would mean that under cabinets wouldn't be included. Thanx for replying let me know what you think.
Click to expand...
The handbook is wrong on this issue...I think they simply forgot to update the comment to reflect the 2014 code change.
 
JDB3 said:
Would be nice to know who "proof reads" the NEC? Just a comment, cause stuff like this leads to problems.
Click to expand...

well to some extent the users that can submit a change proposal, but there are also editorial changes that are sometimes made that are caught by people within NFPA, CMP members, etc. Like I said earlier there is errata data that can be found on NFPA website. Early publications of a new code can have errors and they release this errata so you can print it and incorporate it however you wish in your printed book. Electronic versions probably can be updated to change errors. If you have a later publishing date on your hard copy the early discovered errors will be corrected in your version.

I earlier questioned whether they have similar system for error correction for the handbook.
 
ActionDave said:
And my opinion of AFCI's, as one who is forced to install them and deal with the related headaches rather than one who sells them, is they suck.

Someone sitting on the other side of the table I'm sure sees it differently.
Click to expand...
FYI- I don't directly sell (I, like you, indirectly install and sell as you do) or manufacturer AFCI's...lol....an I have installed quite a few of them in my time with no issues to speak about.
 
MasterTheNEC said:
FYI- I don't directly sell (I, like you, indirectly install and sell as you do) or manufacturer AFCI's...lol....an I have installed quite a few of them in my time with no issues to speak about.
Click to expand...
I have not installed very many, only about fifty or so.

When they first came out I had a really good run as a AFCI demon exorcist. Every time I would troubleshoot an AFCI problem it was a wiring error that was the problem. Go to the biggest three or four gang switch box in the house and find where the neutrals from multiple circuits were jammed under one wire nut, sniff out that mis-wired breaker in the panel, find the recept with the bare EGC just barely touching the silver screw, etc...

I had hundreds of conversations at the local supply houses and electrician watering holes defending AFCI's. "They are fine, you guys just don't know how to wire a circuit", I would say. "GFCI's had issues, they got better." I would say.

Then the day came when I got a call to fix a troublesome circuit on a house that I had wired. "How come when I turn on my TV sometimes the power goes out?" asked the HO.

"I don't know. I'll come check it out" I said.

Checked the circuit from head to toe and it was clean. Talked to the tech guy at GE, "Yes, there are some problems with those breakers, I'll send you a new better one right now, no charge."

That is when the penny dropped. THOSE ROTTEN SOB'S REALLY ARE SELLING SOMETHING THAT THEY KNOW DOES NOT WORK. I switched from an AFCI defender to an AFCI hater that instant.
 
ActionDave said:
I have not installed very many, only about fifty or so.

When they first came out I had a really good run as a AFCI demon exorcist. Every time I would troubleshoot an AFCI problem it was a wiring error that was the problem. Go to the biggest three or four gang switch box in the house and find where the neutrals from multiple circuits were jammed under one wire nut, sniff out that mis-wired breaker in the panel, find the recept with the bare EGC just barely touching the silver screw, etc...

I had hundreds of conversations at the local supply houses and electrician watering holes defending AFCI's. "They are fine, you guys just don't know how to wire a circuit", I would say. "GFCI's had issues, they got better." I would say.

Then the day came when I got a call to fix a troublesome circuit on a house that I had wired. "How come when I turn on my TV sometimes the power goes out?" asked the HO.

"I don't know. I'll come check it out" I said.

Checked the circuit from head to toe and it was clean. Talked to the tech guy at GE, "Yes, there are some problems with those breakers, I'll send you a new better one right now, no charge."

That is when the penny dropped. THOSE ROTTEN SOB'S REALLY ARE SELLING SOMETHING THAT THEY KNOW DOES NOT WORK. I switched from an AFCI defender to an AFCI hater that instant.
Click to expand...

lol...and with one incident you threw the baby out with the bath water. You lumped all manufacturers in that proverbial "SCUM" syndrome...lol

You have to understand that you are talking on the phone with an individual who makes statements on that phone who in all honestly are not aware of all the issues involved. In terms of GE, they did have a radical design change that might have effected their product but as a whole....However, you have one incident versus tons you have properly fixed due to installer error...Now in your own admission your record is 50-1 in successful installs and 100-1 in technical phone conversation WINS.....in the end nothing is perfect but it's the best you have...if does add a level of protection they did not have before and like the GFCI's is does get better and better.....as they learn more about the technology and arc characteristics .

Not a single person can say AFCI's do not do what they intended to do. You can say in your own opinion they don't do what YOU (anyone actually) you perceived they should do...but they do what they say they do and again are not perfect. Between 2002 and 2008 I probably installed no less than 800 AFCI's (give or take a few) and have no had a single customer moan about it, complain about the cost of them. When I question those who had bad experienced with AFCI's i magically get very little details and they hardly ever say they actually "investigated" the issue and with 100% certainty contributed the issue to the AFCI....while it is not impossible, it is just not my experience to say otherwise.

Now...with that said...and I am sure Don and Iwire will bring their points of view...I am not here to debate AFCI's....just give my experience with them.
 
MasterTheNEC said:
lol...and with one incident you threw the baby out with the bath water. You lumped all manufacturers in that proverbial "SCUM" syndrome...lol.....
Click to expand...
Nope. Not so. I had a similar problem with a SQ D breaker. I started a thread about that one. And I will repeat for clarity, I was late jumping on the anti AFCI bandwagon. I defended them for about ten years.

Not a single person can say AFCI's do not do what they intended to do. ...
Click to expand...
Really? What about this guy? http://www.combinationafci.com/

Mike Holt even put out a newsletter.http://www.mikeholt.com/newsletters.php?action=display&letterID=1135

When I question those who had bad experienced with AFCI's i magically get very little details and they hardly ever say they actually "investigated" the issue and with 100% certainty contributed the issue to the AFCI....
Click to expand...
Well I am one who did investigate and I can say with 100% certainty that the problem was the AFCI breaker. Two different brands SQ D HO and GE THQ. Both times it was the breaker. No doubt, no alternate answer, no question about it, no stone left unturned.
 
ActionDave said:
Nope. Not so. I had a similar problem with a SQ D breaker. I started a thread about that one. And I will repeat for clarity, I was late jumping on the anti AFCI bandwagon. I defended them for about ten years.

Really? What about this guy? http://www.combinationafci.com/

Mike Holt even put out a newsletter.http://www.mikeholt.com/newsletters.php?action=display&letterID=1135

Well I am one who did investigate and I can say with 100% certainty that the problem was the AFCI breaker. Two different brands SQ D HO and GE THQ. Both times it was the breaker. No doubt, no alternate answer, no question about it, no stone left unturned.
Click to expand...
Mike Holt had to embarrassingly retract his original statements about AFCI's.....and the Mr. Engle propaganda that is posted is just someone with sour grapes over their fallout with a company to which they were employed and pushed AFCI's for years....

Hey to each his own......I support them and promote them and believe in them so I wont try to change you because that would not be fair since you can't change me and my opinions either. Let's just agree to disagree.....and remain BEST BUDDIES....;)

FYI- Now we can debate if a Glowing Connection is really an ARC....lol....based on the 2001 UL Document Study.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top