- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: AFCI
I will be back
LOL OK fair enough.
I will be back
AFCI
- Thread starter yacik_1
- Start date
- Status
throttlebody
Senior Member
- Location
- Martinsburg, WV
Re: AFCI
2) I didn't mention determining anything.
3) *Improper use of a smilie after a derogatory remark.
*Penalty: 3 day deduction of your morning coffee and doughnut.
1) I didn't ask you if you cared.Originally posted by iwire:
I don't give a rats behind what you jurisdiction has determined.
2) I didn't mention determining anything.
3) *Improper use of a smilie after a derogatory remark.
*Penalty: 3 day deduction of your morning coffee and doughnut.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: AFCI
I do not eat donuts but touch my coffee and the gloves come off.
throttlebody
Senior Member
- Location
- Martinsburg, WV
Re: AFCI
LOL!
DOH!
[ February 16, 2006, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: throttlebody ]
LOL!
DOH!
[ February 16, 2006, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: throttlebody ]
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: AFCI
And the award for most elaborate smiley ever posted goes to: Throttlebody.
[ February 16, 2006, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
And the award for most elaborate smiley ever posted goes to: Throttlebody.
Well done. That was good enough, I completely forgot my point, and that's the signature of a skilled debater. Or a politician.
[ February 16, 2006, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: AFCI
My guess would be walmart they have giant smileys all over the place
Back to the subject at hand,In the drawing posted the OUTLET/receptacle is clearly in the fireplace space and not in the bedroom nor the bathroom therefore no afci or gfci is required.
More food for thought if the scenario was a double sided stained glass display with lighting between the panes of glass and the rooms it served were a bedroom and a family room but the switching was 3 wayed between the two rooms (non lighted) would that have to be afci protected ?
My guess would be walmart they have giant smileys all over the place
Back to the subject at hand,In the drawing posted the OUTLET/receptacle is clearly in the fireplace space and not in the bedroom nor the bathroom therefore no afci or gfci is required.
More food for thought if the scenario was a double sided stained glass display with lighting between the panes of glass and the rooms it served were a bedroom and a family room but the switching was 3 wayed between the two rooms (non lighted)
would that have to be afci protected ?
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: AFCI
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: AFCI
George I feel I have expressed my view, the space this appliance resides in is not a room unto itself, that being the case IMO it is part of the bathroom.
If a receptacle is in the bathroom....
But is the fire place cord and plug or hardwired?
George I feel I have expressed my view, the space this appliance resides in is not a room unto itself, that being the case IMO it is part of the bathroom.
If a receptacle is in the bathroom....
But is the fire place cord and plug or hardwired?
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: AFCI
Cord & Plug. There is a duplex receptacle inside the fireplace.
Cord & Plug. There is a duplex receptacle inside the fireplace.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: AFCI
Take a look at this picture.
Now imagine that this is someones rather large bathroom.
Is the outlet for the TV in the bathroom?
Now look at the fireplace, the only difference in construction is that the fireplace 'fills' the hole in the wall and the TV does not fill the hole.
However in both cases to access the outlets you need to remove the appliance, with the appliances removed IMO the outlets are clearly part of the room the 'hole' faces.
JMO, and how I would approach this.
Bob
Take a look at this picture.
Now imagine that this is someones rather large bathroom.
Is the outlet for the TV in the bathroom?
Now look at the fireplace, the only difference in construction is that the fireplace 'fills' the hole in the wall and the TV does not fill the hole.
However in both cases to access the outlets you need to remove the appliance, with the appliances removed IMO the outlets are clearly part of the room the 'hole' faces.
JMO, and how I would approach this.
Bob
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: AFCI
To add a wrinkle, this receptacle is installed inside the fireplace. So if the receptacle is removed upon removal of the appliance, it this still a receptacle outlet in a bathroom, or merely an outlet?
To add a wrinkle, this receptacle is installed inside the fireplace. So if the receptacle is removed upon removal of the appliance, it this still a receptacle outlet in a bathroom, or merely an outlet?
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: AFCI
Now it sounds more like a bathroom fan deal.
Can you provide a link to the unit?
So the unit is hardwired?
Now it sounds more like a bathroom fan deal.
Can you provide a link to the unit?
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: AFCI
Ug. I'll try.
Another aspect that I've avoided bringing up for discussion's sake is that the receptacle is generally only accessible by flipping open an access panel in the bedroom side of the fireplace.
Ug. I'll try.
Another aspect that I've avoided bringing up for discussion's sake is that the receptacle is generally only accessible by flipping open an access panel in the bedroom side of the fireplace.
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: AFCI
George does the access to the receptacle have screws that must be removed before it can be opened?The reason I ask is if it doesn`t require removal of screws then it would not be readily accesable.Same as having to remove the unit to access the receptacle.But if someone can flip a panel door open and access the receptacle then that throws a whole new light on this subject.At that point I would say it would require acfi protection.
George does the access to the receptacle have screws that must be removed before it can be opened?The reason I ask is if it doesn`t require removal of screws then it would not be readily accesable.Same as having to remove the unit to access the receptacle.But if someone can flip a panel door open and access the receptacle then that throws a whole new light on this subject.At that point I would say it would require acfi protection.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: AFCI
Allen, there are no screws.
But an outlet being readily accessible or not is not a condition for AFCI protection.
Bob, I can't remember what the brand name is, so I'm having a hard time finding the unit.
Allen, there are no screws.
But an outlet being readily accessible or not is not a condition for AFCI protection.
Bob, I can't remember what the brand name is, so I'm having a hard time finding the unit.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: AFCI
Look all I can say is do what you feel is right.
I certainly would not install a GFCI receptacle buried, I would have to load side it from another GFCI or breaker.
My personal feeling is I would provide GFCI protection as someone may be touching this thing while standing barefoot on a wet floor.
Is it required?
That boils down to the inspectors feeling of what is in the bathroom or what is not.
In your case I would ask the guy who pays the bill and do what they want.
The only reason not to GFCI protect it is cost and if you load side it from the bath receptacle the cost is minimal. I can not imagine this thing draws much current (it's gas right?).
Bob
No worries.
Look all I can say is do what you feel is right.
I certainly would not install a GFCI receptacle buried, I would have to load side it from another GFCI or breaker.
My personal feeling is I would provide GFCI protection as someone may be touching this thing while standing barefoot on a wet floor.
Is it required?
That boils down to the inspectors feeling of what is in the bathroom or what is not.
In your case I would ask the guy who pays the bill and do what they want.
The only reason not to GFCI protect it is cost and if you load side it from the bath receptacle the cost is minimal. I can not imagine this thing draws much current (it's gas right?).
Bob
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: AFCI
No George in the NEC 210.12 doesn`t have this situation as a part of required afci protection.But IMO if it accesable from the bedroom then it would be required to be afci protected.If screwed shut then again no afci required as we have already seen.This reminds me of your thread about afci and closet lights.Is it an outlet or isn`t it.That went on for how long? Now we can debate if accesable from a bedroom although within a wall cavity is it in the bedroom or not.By the same token if accesable from the bathroom is gfci required or if it is screwed shut and a panel has to be removed can it just be a gp receptacle.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: AFCI
I don't feel that GFCI is necessary. On the two-sided fireplaces, the receptacle is a normal duplex in a handy-box. The handy box's bonding is reliable.
There's a different receptacle in the single-sided fireplaces. I think it's bonding method is somewhat inferior to normal methods, but it's a factory-designed thing. I'll try to take a picture of it for opinions.
Yeah.
I don't feel that GFCI is necessary. On the two-sided fireplaces, the receptacle is a normal duplex in a handy-box. The handy box's bonding is reliable.
There's a different receptacle in the single-sided fireplaces. I think it's bonding method is somewhat inferior to normal methods, but it's a factory-designed thing. I'll try to take a picture of it for opinions.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: AFCI
Or
Necessary for safety?
Or
Just a prudent step for a safer installation?
It may be safe without GFCI protection but it will be safer with GFCI protection.
I just can't see a good reason not to GFCI protect it.
That said I would be willing to bet very few people would GFCI protect it.
I just did some take offs for a laboratory job we are bidding, 90% of the outlets are GFCI receptacles, there is no code reason for them to be GFCI protected it is just good design IMO.
Necessary for code compliance?
Or
Necessary for safety?
Or
Just a prudent step for a safer installation?
It may be safe without GFCI protection but it will be safer with GFCI protection.
I just can't see a good reason not to GFCI protect it.
That said I would be willing to bet very few people would GFCI protect it.
I just did some take offs for a laboratory job we are bidding, 90% of the outlets are GFCI receptacles, there is no code reason for them to be GFCI protected it is just good design IMO.
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