AFCI

jim dungar said:
They did a good job with GFCIs, their parameters lasted some 50 years, before they needed tweaking.
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I have no problem with GFCIs, just the expansion into places where they aren't needed and equipment that isn't compatible making for nuisance tripping. Like the old saying goes "if it aint broke don't fix it". Yes, they have been reliable for 50 years, so make equipment work with them not the other way around.

-Hal
 
hbiss said:
Yes, they have been reliable for 50 years, so make equipment work with them not the other way around.
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50 years ago we did not have the plethora of electronic motor controllers and power supplies, with their harmonics, that we have now. I can understand that some of our protection parameters may need to be tweaked. Kind of like we did with conductor ratings as insulation got better.
 
ActionDave said:
The appliances are fine. The problem is expanding GFCI protection where it's not needed
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Kinda sort of. I can think of one place where GFCI protection is needed and that is with pool pumps. If a pool pump won't play nice with existing GFCIs it should be up to the manufacturer to redesign the pump so it does, not expect the GFCIs to be redesigned. It's a lot easier to put power line filters in the back of a pump motor than it is in a little plastic GFCI housing.

Some here keep touting UL. Why is it that they don't delist all the stuff out there that nuisance trips GFCIs and make manufacturers take responsibility? That stuff should have been tested for this and shouldn't have been listed to begin with. Wonder how it was? :unsure:

-Hal
 
One thing I have noticed about this forum is you all really hate AFCI's.
The other thing I notice is the long time posters whom are clearly long time practicing master electricians, who do residential, like @hbiss or @LarryFine to name a few rarely if ever seem to be the ones with a AFCI problem on their own electrical work.
 
I've been pretty much retired since AFCIs became required like they are today. I do commercial also. Still, I have always avoided installing AFCIs if I could. But admittedly, the few I have installed were trouble free... as far as I know.

-Hal
 
readydave8 said:
50 years ago we didn't think GFCI'S were reliable
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If you think about the state of technology back then it makes you wonder how something like that could be made in a small package. 50 years ago we had the brick phone. As far as GFCIs are concerned, the design could only be rudimentary with what components were available. So, I could see the skepticism which might have even been founded.

-Hal
 
Industrial for most of my career so never had to deal a lot with AFCI's or GFCI's.

Put in several on a few residential side jobs over the years but never had any real issues with any of them.

Most Service calls I go on where a GFI or AFCI trips, there was a reason.

As far as the most recent incompatibility issues, there seems to be room for improvement on both sides.

Jap>
 
pipe_bender said:
One thing I have noticed about this forum is you all really hate AFCI's.
The other thing I notice is the long time posters whom are clearly long time practicing master electricians, who do residential, like @hbiss or @LarryFine to name a few rarely if ever seem to be the ones with a AFCI problem on their own electrical work.
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I've moved into full time commercial work since 2018, before that the shop I worked for did large custom homes, commercial and service work in both camps. Early on in the adoption of AFCIs I gathered a reputation as the guy who could excise the demons out of nuisance tripping AFCIs. I would go on a service call and find a neutral to ground fault or a crossed neutral on the circuit every time. I was among the crowd who said anybody who had problems with AFCIs needed to get their act together and stop blaming the breaker when it was lousy wiring practices that were the problem.

Then it happened to me. I got a call one day from a contractor on a house I wired. The trim carpenters were having problems with breakers tripping. I show up and start troubleshooting. Problem breakers were all AFCIs tripping with any tool that had a soft start. Plug that tool into a GFCI protected circuit and there was no tripping. Plug anything else into the AFCI circuit and there was no tripping. The problem was the AFCI. Sq D Homeline. I started a thread about it here. Consensus was the silicone controlled rectifiers in the soft start caused the AFCI to nuisance trip.

Then it happened to me again on another house I wired. This time it was the home owner having problems with their big screen TV tripping the breaker. Load the circuit up with heaters, hair dryers or anything else and there was no problem. This time it was GE breakers because Sq D was on the fecal excrement list at our shop. I called GE and got through to someone who sent new breakers to install. I remember the conversation well. He told me all about how certain loads will nuisance trip older editions of the breakers but he would send me a box of the latest batch of AFCIs at no charge.

Then it happened to me again two years ago even though I was in full time commercial construction and thought my AFCI woes were in the rear view mirror. I helped my wife's sister and her husband with a kitchen remodel. I pulled a new circuit for their new fridge. Sent the BIL to the store to get a GFCI breaker for it. He came back with a Dual Function breaker. A week after the fridge is installed he asks me why his fridge goes out at odd times. Swap the DF breaker for a straight GFCI breaker and fridge works with no problems. Siemens breaker this time.

AFCIs are a fraud. The manufacturers knew it and rammed them into the code anyway. That's why I hate them.
 
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