AFCI

[hhsting]

I have residential townhome where the fridge receptacle is located in kitchen. Engineer marked the plans and said AFCI for the fridge can be eliminated if that is allowed by AHJ inspector. I have no idea why note is being provided.

I dont see any exception for fridge receptacle
Located in kitchen not to be AFCI. Am I wrong on this?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

The 2017 NEC requires AFCI protection for the branch circuit that supplies that receptacle. The only way that the AHJ can eliminate that is with an legally adopted amendment to the NEC.

 

[suemarkp]

He's probably trying to be practical. I had an AFCI on a kitchen circuit that worked fine until I got a new refrigerator (I think it has a VFD type compressor). The AFCI would trip every few months. I since replaced it with a non AFCI. It is still GFCI protected which seems to be OK with the new fridge, but not AFCI. I could buy a new AFCI, but at $70 a pop I hate to replace it only to find it trips again in a few months.

The code doesn't support this, so sucks to be a new homeowner these days with the code getting ahead of what actually works.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I had an AFCI on a kitchen circuit that worked fine until I got a new refrigerator (I think it has a VFD type compressor).

Interesting ...I have not heard that about AFCIs, but heard it a lot about GFCIs protecting refrigerators that have VFDs. That issue is one of the reasons for the GFCI-HF device.

 

[ramsy]

OP home state is MD, which adopted the 2023 NEC last year, without amendments.

Which means GFCI is also required for all kitchen receptacles.

 

[ActionDave]

He's probably trying to be practical. I had an AFCI on a kitchen circuit that worked fine until I got a new refrigerator (I think it has a VFD type compressor). The AFCI would trip every few months. I since replaced it with a non AFCI. It is still GFCI protected which seems to be OK with the new fridge, but not AFCI. I could buy a new AFCI, but at $70 a pop I hate to replace it only to find it trips again in a few months.

The code doesn't support this, so sucks to be a new homeowner these days with the code getting ahead of what actually works.

I had a similar experience. New Samsung fridge, Sieman Dual Function AFCI. New fridge would trip the breaker at random times. Ditched the DF breaker, installed GFCI recpt and problems went away. AFCIs are garbage and a fraud.

 

[ActionDave]

Interesting ...I have not heard that about AFCIs, but heard it a lot about GFCIs protecting refrigerators that have VFDs. That issue is one of the reasons for the GFCI-HF device.

So instead of getting rid of useless AFCIs or removing requirements where GFCIs aren't needed we get to spend money on a new device. Win for the corporations, lose for the common man. Meanwhile the rest of the world has safer RCD technology in play and for some reason we can't access that in the US.

 

[ramsy]

That issue is one of the reasons for the GFCI-HF device.

Most panel flippers wont consider GFCI-HF. They just use dual-function breakers, regardless what plan check specs.

If compatible appliances weren’t specified ahead of time, its typically up to homeowners, or service electricians, to re-configure everything.

Everybody sees homeowners & their remodelers coming, to violate smoke alarm listings, and rip out xFCI crap for standard breakers.

 

[jim dungar]

safer RCD technology in

RCD is not safer than GFCI. They are fundamentally the same technology.
The big difference is between their pickup points and their time-current curves.

So the argument should be, why does the US remain at 6mA when the rest of the world doesn't?

 

[ramsy]

Win for the corporations, lose for the common man.

US citizens have always been indentured to captains of industry.

 

[ramsy]

RCD is not safer than GFCI. They are fundamentally the same technology.
The big difference is between their pickup points and their time-current curves.

So the argument should be, why does the US remain at 6mA when the rest of the world doesn't?

Unlike RCD devices, engineered to handle harmonics per IEC standards, xFCI follows UL, deliberately designed to force reasonable people to remove it, mandated everywhere by the NEC, so everybody can be canceled and non-renewed, as non compliant criminals.

 

[ActionDave]

RCD is not safer than GFCI. They are fundamentally the same technology.
The big difference is between their pickup points and their time-current curves.

So the argument should be, why does the US remain at 6mA when the rest of the world doesn't?

We have the same argument just different phrasing from my reading of your response. The rest of the world has safer and more reliable electrical protection while we spend more money for nuisance tripping AFCIs and GFCIs on equipment its not compatible with.

 

[jim dungar]

deliberately designed to force reasonable people to remove it,

No. They are not designed to require replacement.
GFCI have been working for more than 50 years. As others have pointed out the GF issues have almost all been caused by changes in the loads. Why don't the appliance manufacturers need to change their products to work with our infrastructure?

 

[infinity]

So the argument should be, why does the US remain at 6mA when the rest of the world doesn't?

I wonder is the 4-6mA threshold the issue or is it manufacturer's producing products that can not work well on the GFCI's we have here in the US? Since we're all complaining why do we require hard wired sump pumps to be GFCI protected? There two feet down in a hole where no one can touch them.

 

[jim dungar]

I wonder is the 4-6mA threshold the issue or is it manufacturer's producing products that can not work well on the GFCI's we have here in the US? Since we're all complaining why do we require hard wired sump pumps to be GFCI protected? There two feet down in a hole where no one can touch them.

I agree with you. My reply was to the comment RCD are safer.

 

[ActionDave]

No. They are not designed to require replacement.
GFCI have been working for more than 50 years. As others have pointed out the GF issues have almost all been caused by changes in the loads. Why don't the appliance manufacturers need to change their products to work with our infrastructure?

Because the body count is infinitesimal when it comes to properly wired appliances. Why don't we instead leave the appliance manufacturing alone and move to a style of protection that makes everything that uses electricity safer that matches the RCD protection used elsewhere.

 

[jim dungar]

Because the body count is infinitesimal when it comes to properly wired appliances. Why don't we instead leave the appliance manufacturing alone and move to a style of protection that makes everything that uses electricity safer that matches the RCD protection used elsewhere.

It is not the RCD style.
It is the pickup point of the Europeans.

 

[ramsy]

We have the same argument just different phrasing

It just took me a bit longer to come around your way of thinking.

 

[ActionDave]

It is not the RCD style.
It is the pickup point of the Europeans.

It's whatever you want to call it to be scientifically specific.

Electricity is dangerous. We all want it to be safer. There is a way to make it safer without sacrificing reliability. Can we just do that instead of forcing AFCIs into the marketplace and expanding the scope of GFCI requirements into places where the cost to safety ratio moves twenty-seven zeros to the right of the decimal place?

GFPE or RCD protection fills that place in my limited ability to articulate my thoughts.

 

[kwired]

So instead of getting rid of useless AFCIs or removing requirements where GFCIs aren't needed we get to spend money on a new device. Win for the corporations, lose for the common man. Meanwhile the rest of the world has safer RCD technology in play and for some reason we can't access that in the US.

The manufacturers have essentially bought the code making panels. They spend a lot of $$ with papers, demonstrations, etc. that are tailored to show things that favor using their product. You can bet they never show or talk about any product shortcomings, downsides, etc. even if they are aware of them when making any kind of presentation for the CMP's to see.