Afci

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Paul T

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Mike



I am working on an older home that has had 4 AFCI?s installed.



They are having nuisance trips , sometimes once a month or less. It always resets and is fine for weeks at a time.



It is an older house and each of the 4 circuits include a bedroom, (receptacles and lighting) , as well as ? baths.



The 4 AFCI?s are mounted side by side and I have read that due to some heat they generate that it would be better to separate them in the box.



My understanding is that they are not even required in older homes, any input would be greatly appreciated.



Regards



Paul T
 
I had installed them in a cabin and when they had run sewer to the areas the didn't remove the old wire run to the septic station pump. It was cut-off and still in the ground live. I would get a nuisance trip when we had heavy rains. Took me awhile to track it down. I got lucky and saw the old line exposed in the dirt.

Just one possibility.
 
Paul, can you give us more info. Are they all tripping at once? Is one tripping more than the others? Can you identify what is on each one of them? Who installed them? Was a permit pulled?

If a permit was pulled, I would say they have to stay. If no permit, it would be a gray area IMO. Although, once most people are satisfied with their performance; some localities are going to require they be installed before issuing a new COO.
 
Paul T said:
Mike . . . My understanding is that they are not even required in older homes, any input would be greatly appreciated.
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You might as well address your question to the membership at large. Mike Holt does not often get time to monitor this Forum or to post his own answers to any questions.

The statement that AFCIs are not required in older homes is a bit misleading, and is essentially wrong in your specific case. The generally accepted rule, the "grandfather clause," says that if an existing building does not comply with the current codes, but it did comply with the codes that were in effect when it was built, then you cannot be forced to modify it to comply with current codes.

In your case, when the house was built there was no requirement for AFCI protection. So if the house did not have any, the owner could not be forced to install them. The rule is different if you plan to make changes. For example, if the owner wanted to install a new bedroom, then that bedroom's outlets would have to have AFCI protection, even if there were no other AFCIs in the house.

But the house you are describing does have AFCI. There is no rule that says you are free to remove them, just because they were not required when the house was new. The current code requires them. The house has them. They have to stay.
 
charlie b said:

You might as well address your question to the membership at large. Mike Holt does not often get time to monitor this Forum or to post his own answers to any questions.

The statement that AFCIs are not required in older homes is a bit misleading, and is essentially wrong in your specific case. The generally accepted rule, the "grandfather clause," says that if an existing building does not comply with the current codes, but it did comply with the codes that were in effect when it was built, then you cannot be forced to modify it to comply with current codes.

In your case, when the house was built there was no requirement for AFCI protection. So if the house did not have any, the owner could not be forced to install them. The rule is different if you plan to make changes. For example, if the owner wanted to install a new bedroom, then that bedroom's outlets would have to have AFCI protection, even if there were no other AFCIs in the house.

But the house you are describing does have AFCI. There is no rule that says you are free to remove them, just because they were not required when the house was new. The current code requires them. The house has them. They have to stay.
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Not too sure that they must stay.If no new work was done i dont see them as required.Where does it say i cant change breakers ?
 
It bears saying, there are whole States that are not enforcing AFCI requirements and there are also localities not enforcing.

There are also States (I believe such as Vermont) that require many more AFCI breakers than the National Electrical Code does.

Check with the local electrical inspector.
 
Electrical Inspector

Electrical Inspector

I ask electricians from time to time if they are having any problems with the afci breakers and I only had one that was having a problem. He said that the arc fault breaker was tripping and they traced the problem to an alarm clock. I ask him what they did about it. he said he cut the plug off the alarm clock. problem solved. Occasionally the arc faults go bad or the neutral is not connected or loose this will cause it not to work.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
Not too sure that they must stay. If no new work was done i dont see them as required. Where does it say i can't change breakers ?
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What the code says is
(1) They must be there,
(2) If they are not already there, you don't have to add them.

How can this be interpreted as saying you can remove ones that are there? If you replace an AFCI breaker, you must bring that component up to the current codes, which means the replacement must be AFCI also.
 
charlie b said:
What the code says is
(1) They must be there,
(2) If they are not already there, you don't have to add them.

How can this be interpreted as saying you can remove ones that are there? If you replace an AFCI breaker, you must bring that component up to the current codes, which means the replacement must be AFCI also.
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It does not say older homes must have them.If it was not required when built then i could repair with what was code compliant at time it was built.What code would you cite if you indpected this 20 plus year old house ?
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
If it was not required when built then i could repair with what was code compliant at time it was built.
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If it had already been upgraded to meet current codes, you cannot modify it such that it only meets the codes that were in effect when the house was new. The code I would inspect to is 210.12(B). What code would you use to tell me that the house does not need to meet 210.12(B)?

Here's the difference:

  • If an older home does not have AFCI,
  • and if a bedroom receptacle becomes broken,
  • and if you were called in to repair it by installing a new receptacle,
  • then you could do replace the receptacle without installing AFCI protection for the circuit.
On the other hand,

  • If an older home DOES have AFCI breakers protecting bedroom circuits,
  • and an AFCI circuit breaker that feeds bedroom receptacles becomes broken,
  • and if you were called in to repair it by installing a replacement breaker,
  • then you would have to replace the broken AFCI breaker with another AFCI breaker.
 
Are there any speed controls for paddle fans ,including integral ones in the fan?? I have a customer that says sometimes when he changes speeds the AFCI trips. Three circuits serve the bedrooms and it happens on all of them .
 
I would have to say that it depends upon the wiring present? Obviously there MUST be a ground wire available in order for AFCI's to be installed, right?

That would indicate a recent installation?

I'll repeat what has been said, if they exist currently, I would "think" that they would need to be kept, in order to meet code whether defective, and repaired/replaced or otherwise.

If they currently are wired with "ground" wires, which are complete to the panel, and IT is correctly grounded, then there MUST be a problem in another area?

Our JOB, as electricians is to make the systems safe for our customers. It is VERY easy to rip out existing systems, and use some "excuse" for our lack of knowledge, rather than to locate & repair a VERY real problem.

I would locate the PROBLEM, and repair it.
 
M. D. said:
Are there any speed controls for paddle fans ,including integral ones in the fan?? I have a customer that says sometimes when he changes speeds the AFCI trips. Three circuits serve the bedrooms and it happens on all of them .
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Could you describe your problem in more detail?
 
Three fans on separate A.F.C.I. circuits ,Homeowner says whether he uses the speed control integral or the wall mounted they trip the A.F.C.I. I read somewhere online that this is not so uncommon??
 
NFPA Standards Concil Meeting July 14, 2004

Steve Campolo with Leviton
".......Aparticular fan designated a Craftmade
7 ceiling fan, a panel fan, I personally received phone
8 calls from the field saying "Your speed control is
9 causing my AFCI to trip."
10 I went out and purchased these fans and hooked
11 them up with the AFCIs and the fan speed control, and lo
12 and behold, confirmed that capacitive type fan speed
13 controls, a technology around for over 30 years, does
14 indeed cause most -- well, three out of the four
15 available AFCIs on the market today to trip......."
 
M. D. said:
NFPA Standards Concil Meeting July 14, 2004

Steve Campolo with Leviton
".......A particular fan designated a Craftmade ceiling fan, a panel fan, I personally received phone calls from the field saying "Your speed control is causing my AFCI to trip." I went out and purchased these fans and hooked them up with the AFCIs and the fan speed control, and lo and behold, confirmed that capacitive type fan speed controls, a technology around for over 30 years, does indeed cause most -- well, three out of the four available AFCIs on the market today to trip......."
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There's a shock. :roll:

It's interesting. Recently I went searching for a list of items acknowledged by the manufacturers to trip AFCI's. Funny, all I found were a bunch of articles touting how much testing they did on them prior to release, and how they are very immune to nuisance tripping. All the troubleshooting guides I found said essentially, "There is a wiring problem your AFCI is bringing to light."

In disgust, I stopped searching. The least they can do is make this information more accessible, instead of hiding their flaws. :mad:
 
George,
In disgust, I stopped searching. The least they can do is make this information more accessible, instead of hiding their flaws.
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How could you even expect that type of information, given all of the misinformation that was/is published to get these things into the NEC. Remember that to this day there is not an AFCI device on the market that can do what was promised in the original AFCI proposals for the 1996 code....some 13 years!!
Don
 
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don_resqcapt19 said:
Remember that to this day there in not an AFCI device on the market that can do what was promised in the original AFCI proposals for the 1996 code....some 13 years!!
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If I just close my eyes, cover my ears and ingnore the smell. . .the elephant in the room disappears!!! :rolleyes:
 
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