AFCI's

[straps]

Doing a major remodel the ahj uses the 2000 nec. The arch. states in remarks bedrooms to be arc fault prot.
Used the same page for carpentry, cabinetry, electrical, plumbing this is a 4 room major gut job knocked down 6 load supporting walls used engineer for wall support.
So here I go home is 150amp exterior main fed via a no longer used fuze panel gutted out and connected to a square D QO style surface mount panel. Roughing as I go along when I finish a room I power it up and check for operation shorts etc. all work okay getting close to rough inspection time to remove the stnd cbs for the 2 bedrooms and install the afcis. They hold okay but the minute you attempt to test any load they trip. Installed exactly per manufactures specs with the install sheet in front of me it holds power with no useage. If I attempt to put a 40watt test light ( Pigtail tester) from power to neutral not ground but neutral pop goes the afci. I took it out and installed a 15amp. It holds no problem. Powered up 1 cieling fan 1 smoke detector 4 outlets with vac, radio, tv plugged in holds all. Install a second afci it pops every time.
History both bedrooms were pulled in as a 14/3 circuit with a shared neutral. My setup is the 14/3 is split in a 1900 box with seperate feeds to each bedroom. I have the same problem on either bedroom.
I am open to suggestions tomorrow I am gonna do new home runs outside the walls cielings etc and see if they each hold on seperate circuits, But I have little to no experience with afci. I installed them with ground wire to large screw and pigtail attached to ground bus. Line feed to small attachment point per man instructions. Keeps popping any ideas teammates?

 

[infinity]

Re: AFCI's

Here in NJ we're not required to use them so I've actually never installed one. But it sounds to me like the shared neutral with the 14-3 homeruns are your problem. I'm thinking that AFCI's are wired similarly to GFCI circuit breakers which require their own neutral.

 

[kevinware]

Re: AFCI's

I just install two AFCI circuits for a small two bedroom house, one AFCI circuit for each room, they seem to be working fine so far. All the information I find about AFCI breakers suggest that they be installed using a dedicated grounded conductor (neutral)

 

[LarryFine]

Re: AFCI's

Straps, you can not share neutrals with AFCI's, just like with GFCI's. The only way you could use the existing 14-3 home run is to install a small sub-panel where the two circuits split into two 14-2's.

Note: I'm not suggesting you atcually do this, only pointing out the electrical issue. The proper solution is to run another 14-2 from the split point, and abandon the second hot conductor in the 14-3.

Edited for sloppy fingers

[ July 22, 2005, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: LarryFine ]

 

[davedottcom]

Re: AFCI's

Could you put both bedrooms on (1) circuit &
just use one AFCI breaker?

Dave

 

[straps]

Re: AFCI's

Thanks team I appreciate all inputs. I am gonna try putting both on 1 cb and abandon the second circuit and see if it holds . If it does then I only have to run 1 each 40 foot long home run.
More information tonight thanks gang you guys are the greatest

 

[charlie b]

Re: AFCI's

Originally posted by davedottcom: Could you put both bedrooms on (1) circuit &
just use one AFCI breaker?

Yes. There are restrictions about sharing certain circuits between bathrooms and other rooms, but no restrictions about sharing circuits between bedrooms.

 

[straps]

Re: AFCI's

Well got to the job did as suggested and pop goes the cb. So I figured what the hay lets run a second home run to the 1900 box from the inside panel. Same problem same old same old. I took the entire box apart, the kitchen wall to run new feed et all. Same result.So I did what I used to do when I hit a brick wall fixing B47s for SAC get away from the Job and rest your crainiyum. I decided to do something else today.
I chose to spend a day pounding on a cinder block wall.anyone who has worked in Florida knows the exterior walls you cannot put in a box or run wiring down thru them( Cause the wood chewers use furring strips on the outside walls with little to no insulation in them) so I used today ( The whole day to cut a groove into the front wall of this nemisis of mine and did a back to back outlet into a bell box)
I was ready to sell this job too some nut case and I came home and reread the ideas of my contemporaries. I think I have found the culpert.
I have been connecting the neutral of the circuit to the neutral bar in the panel. Then running a seperate white wire to the neutral side of the cb.
I think the neutral of the circuit has to go to the neutral of the afci. Am I right team?
I will know on monday or if I have time I may go by there saturday and try it. I re read the nice diagram that 1` of you guys left for me. Which only goes to prove haste makes waste.

 

[LarryFine]

Re: AFCI's

Forgive us for assuming you knew how to wire AFCI and GFCI breakers. :roll:

Yes, the circuit neutral connects to the breaker neutral terminal, and the breaker's white white wire goes to the neutral bus.

Note: the points about shared neutrals are still valid.

 

[davedottcom]

Re: AFCI's

Straps, the AFCI breaker wiring is exactly the same as a GFCI breaker. Surely you've hooked up one of those!
The LOAD Neutral MUST go directly to the breaker, no jumper!


Dave

 

[magoo66]

Re: AFCI's

When will they come out with afci receptacle?

 

[ryan_618]

Re: AFCI's

Originally posted by magoo66:
When will they come out with afci receptacle?

From everything I have heard...probably never.

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: AFCI's

FYI
Cutler Hammer makes an AFCI breaker for use with multi-wire branch circuts.

 

[magoo66]

Re: AFCI's

Has anyone had problems with AFCI's tripping on small motor loads?(paddle fan w/variable speed control, bath exhaust fan, ect)

 

[davedottcom]

Re: AFCI's

I've never had a nuisance trip from an AFCI breaker. (None I know of!) But I NEVER put anything on the AFCI circuit that doesn't absolutely have to be... just the Bedroom "outlets".


Dave

 

[magoo66]

Re: AFCI's

Maybe a bad habit from the pre-afci days but I usually share the master bath lighting with the bedroom ckt. Which brings up another question, I usually use a gfci receptacle (on the same ckt) as a supply for any over tub/shower lighting. Does anyone see any problems with this?

[ July 23, 2005, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: magoo66 ]

 

[growler]

Re: AFCI's

You are not putting your bedroom fans on AFCI protected branch circuits? It's in the 2002 NEC.
I haven't had the fans trip the breaker,I must be the same as exhaust fans, some are rated for use on GFCI protected circuits and others are not.

 

[davedottcom]

Re: AFCI's

Magoo, I understand, but I broke that habit real quick! Nothing but bed rm. outlets! It's not worth the risk to me.

Growler, I'm not sure if you we're replying to me but if you were. Yes, of course I do put the ceiling fans on the AFCI. They are fed from a ceiling "Outlet".

Dave

 

[growler]

Re: AFCI's

Sorry Dave , reading the two post I must have gotten jumbled up there for a minute. I had to reread carefully to see what they said and that the were written by two different people. I try to keep my circuits seperate and find it strange when people want to mix. We each have a different way of doing things.

 

[lenney]

Re: AFCI's

what about bedroom fans smoke detectors arc faults are a major pain what i have found is making a jumper like a cord w/2 male plugs of course i wouldnt do that and start logically disaemebling circut and use jumper to test it takes time but i have found problem many times by this method some guys are heavy hitters on staples or w/razor knife seems like i have the most problems w/same crews First off replace arcfault breaker i have 10 or more bad ones on my truck now [sd]