AFCI's

[straps]

Re: AFCI's

Put the project to bed today inspection on rought wednesday. The afcis worked out as advertised no problems now I went back to the original plan drawn up with all the crap onit and lo and behold the arch made all 3 bedromms as being req'd to be afci equiped the problem is the bathroom is on the same circuit as the 3rd bedroom but we are not touching the 3rd bedroom at all for anything except smoke detector. Can I be forced to put the 3rd unused untouched bedroom on a afci please say screw the arch.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: AFCI's

Straps, a while back I was sent to a basement to bring it to code, after a botched h/o fiasco.

I noticed the upstair had also been changed to grounding-style receptacles despite a lack of ground. When I installed GFCI breakers for the basement I was responsible for, I GFCI'ed the upstairs too. Wrote it up on my paperwork, and put it behind me.

And I lived.

Just put the stupid thing in.

 

[T-Wragg]

Re: AFCI's

For the last couple of years I have been putting everything in the bedrooms on AFCI's and I have never had a problem with any of the installations until recently. On this last job I have one Home run for the receptacles, and one for the lights. Each circuit is protected by its own AFCI. When I turn on one of the switch legs for the lights the AFCI for the receptacles trips. I think the problem is caused by a nail. Right now I'm looking into that. After reading the previous post I feel that I have been very lucky not to of had problems with the AFCI'S before. Is it a good idea to only put the receptacles on the AFCI'S and nothing else. Also is there more of a problem when running the home runs off a subpanel than from the main panel.
We still use the 1999 code. We are switching to the 2002 in August.

 

[hurk27]

Re: AFCI's

By T-Bird: When I turn on one of the switch legs for the lights the AFCI for the receptacles trips. I think the problem is caused by a nail.

I would be willing to bet that somewhere both neutrals have been connected together or you used a 3-wire (multiwire circuit) common neutral to feed these two circuits.
You cannot share a neutral on the load side of an AFCI or a GFCI.
If the neutral from another circuit is connected to a AFCI protected circuit it will cause the AFCI to trip when a load is applied.
This will also happen if the neutral gets grounded.
To check for this would only require turning off both AFCI breakers and removing the neutrals from the AFCI breakers, then using a continuty tester, check each one to the grounding bar and to each other. If theres continuty then use the tester to find the connection and clear it.

 

[straps]

Re: AFCI's

excellent post wayne

 

[T-Wragg]

Re: AFCI's

Thanks Wayne. I did not run a three wire circuit. The only thing that solved the problem was to remove the switch leg causing the problem. At first I only disconnected the black and the white of the switch leg at the switch box and the light, and used a temporary switch leg, but the problem persisted as long as the ground of the old switch leg remained connected. When I also disconnected the ground of the old switch leg the problem was solved. Since the old switch leg runs through the same hole as the receptacle circuit wires I think thats where the wires have been crossed. I will do the continuity test that you suggested tomorrow. Before I disconnected the old switch leg I combined both circuits at the panel and used one AFCI and the old switch leg still tripped the breaker. This makes me think that I didn't combine the neutrals somewhere. Thank you very much for your suggestions I learn a lot from this forum.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: AFCI's

I will do the continuity test that you suggested tomorrow.

While Wayne's test is excellent for beginning to diagnose a problem with an AFCI circuit, you might have already isolated the problem switch-box/switchleg/fixture. I'd do continuity testing around that switchbox first. If the switchleg is the problem, you will find continuity between conductors on it. Make sure you take the bulbs out before testing.

Repeat after me, my meter is my friend. My meter is my friend.

Before I disconnected the old switch leg I combined both circuits at the panel and used one AFCI and the old switch leg still tripped the breaker. This makes me think that I didn't combine the neutrals somewhere.

Unless there's a third circuit.

But I tend to agree, it sounds like the neutral is touching the ground either in the switchbox, in the switchleg, or at the fixture.

Do you have a switched outlet on one of the circuits?

 

[LarryFine]

Re: AFCI's

It's also possible there's a good ol' regular short circuit;. Don't forget that AFCI and GFCI breakers are still breakers, and may be tripping without there being crossed-neutral problems.

 

[harley]

Re: AFCI's

You can share a neutral on GFCI & AFCI. How about a 50, 60 amp hot tub GFCI. Everybody makes these (2 poles shared neutral "a"). AFCI 2 pole shared neutral CH, and siemens makes them.

 

[straps]

Re: AFCI's

Passed the roughing and got banged for ready for this. Yes this is a Florida Inspector he wanted me to install insulation sleeves on the cold water pipes in the master bath. Claimed the romex might touch the water pipe and also the plumbing final would bust. So rather than fight I complied small price to pay for everything in this house from hell.
Had a funny happen so here goes while checking out the light ( Pull Chain ) and the outlet in the ac maintenance closet found out that if you use the grounding wire on romex hot legs to check with a wiggy you pop the afci everytime. But if you check black to white no problems. I sure am not in love with these darn afcis. The ahj uses the 2000 code. Every town in south florida uses something different.In the space of 20 miles you could be in 8 different towns and each uses different versions of the code. Ex Miramar uses the 1999, next town over pembroke pines uses the 2002, next town that surrounds both of these towns Hollywood uses the 2000 version.
I learned the trade in the usaf and we used the newest for that year only.
I read on 1 of the posts that Florida Inspectors were different they sure are but preety fair overall.

 

[augie47]

Re: AFCI's

if you use the grounding wire on romex hot legs to check with a wiggy you pop the afci everytime. But if you check black to white no problems.

I believe if you check the specs on AFCIs you will find they offer a degree of GFCI protection also (not the 5 mil personnel protection)
The same result would occur if you tested from "hot" to equipment ground on a GFCI circuit.

 

[LarryFine]

Re: AFCI's

Originally posted by harley:
You can share a neutral on GFCI & AFCI. How about a 50, 60 amp hot tub GFCI. Everybody makes these (2 poles shared neutral "a"). AFCI 2 pole shared neutral CH, and siemens makes them.

As long as the two hots (and the neutral) run through the GFCI, it will function just fine. It's when one hot does and the other does not that you have trouble, because the neutral will have some GFCI current and some non-GFCI current on it.