AFI's crying "wolf"

[kbsparky]

I recently trimmed out a bedroom addition, and installed an AFI breaker on the bedroom circuit as required.

We also had an outside outlet tied into that circuit, and the finish carpenter came out to install some trim after we were finished.

The carpenter was happy to find an energized outside outlet to plug his chop saw into, but quickly found out that the AFI breaker would not hold using such a tool.

The problem was not the amount of current that the saw required -- it would cut just fine. Instead, it was the electric brake mechanism in the saw: When you release the trigger, the saw slams on the brakes (literally forces itself into reverse for a second??) to slow down the blade. This action was what tripped out the AFI breaker.

You could get one cut for each time you reset the breaker. :-?

I am still not convinced that the manufacturers of such breakers have figured out all the bugs.

One the one hand, you have the purported safety of premises wiring with these breakers. On the other, you have the safety feature of braking the spinning saw blade once you release the trigger.

It would seem that both of these safety features cannot be utilized at the same time.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

I agree that the manufacturers have not worked out considerable issues. The saw issue is not so bad now, as he can plug into another circuit.

I cannot wait until some jurisdictions pick up the whole house. I think this is when the AFCI manufacturers will really be put on the chopping block, as the reality of how inadequate the CBs are will become apparent.

 

[kbsparky]

The problem with plugging into another circuit is that now he is stringing a 100' extension cord out the door, and using a non-gfi-protected outlet to operate his saw to avoid the afi-protected gfi outlet that we installed outside.

Another reason to put only the required outlets on those pesky afi breakers, and keep everything else on real circuit breakers ... <sigh>.

 

[realolman]

A naive question: How do things that don't work properly get incorporated into the NEC?

 

[George Stolz]

Judging from what I've seen of the AFCI debacle: Cash, seemingly scientific presentations for the CMP, and an agenda on the manufacturer's part.

 

[hockeyoligist2]

Judging from what I've seen of the AFCI debacle: Cash, seemingly scientific presentations for the CMP, and an agenda on the manufacturer's part.

I think you hit the nail on the head George!

 

[celtic]

A naive question: How do things that don't work properly get incorporated into the NEC?

Dr. Greenback is the nation's foremost authority on EVERYTHING.

 

[mvannevel]

Judging from what I've seen of the AFCI debacle: Cash, seemingly scientific presentations for the CMP, and an agenda on the manufacturer's part.

emphasis added

Although I have no proof positive (which means I probably shouldn't suggest this), it would surprise me not at all to discover that the NFPA is both a willing and eager accomplice in the manufacturers agenda. I also happen to believe that other manufacturers are watching this closely to see how it plays out. Not only is the Code making process being used to have the electrical industry and the consumer act as the R&D deparment for the AFCI manufacturers, it's also being used to prevent the device manufacturers from getting a slice of the pie. And in the process, to lend a hand to the people at the Steel Tube Institute.

If this is allowed to continue, we'll be seeing more of the same in the future. Rush to get your unproven technology mandated in the Code so the consumer can help you work the kinks out of it (on their dime). And in the process, form alliances to help exclude others from getting into the game. This is a far cry from the "practical safeguarding that the Code prides itself on.

Yes, I know, bitter and cynical. But I do feel better having vented.

 

[kingpb]

Sorta sounds like Bill Gates and Windows/Vista:roll:

 

[celtic]

Sorta sounds like Bill Gates and Windows/Vista:roll:

Nail on the head with virtutally ALL Windows Operating Systems.

 

[realolman]

I agree re: microsoft, but (As of yet ) the legislatures haven't mandated the use of any particular O.S into law.

"I think it's a pretty sad comentary that folks who live by the NEC would even suspect the NEC, NFPA, and legislatures of being money driven, "Realolman said cynically.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

it's also being used to prevent the device manufacturers from getting a slice of the pie. And in the process, to lend a hand to the people at the Steel Tube Institute.

Actually the Steel Tube people are helping to bring the device manufacturers into the AFCI business. They supported (or submitted) the proposal that will permit the branch circuit conductors to not have AFCI protection up to the point of the first outlet. An AFCI device would be installed at the outlet to provide the AFCI protection for the rest of the circuit and outlets.
Don

 

[iwire]

Sorta sounds like Bill Gates and Windows/Vista:roll:

We sure do agree on that.

The entire software industry has blazed new paths marketing unfinished / incomplete products.

 

[mvannevel]

Actually the Steel Tube people are helping to bring the device manufacturers into the AFCI business. They supported (or submitted) the proposal that will permit the branch circuit conductors to not have AFCI protection up to the point of the first outlet. An AFCI device would be installed at the outlet to provide the AFCI protection for the rest of the circuit and outlets.

I still see it as an unholy alliance. Those provisions are not much more than lip service to the device manufacturers. By the time you fool around running conduit to the device (and my memory from the ROP is that the max distance is something like 6'), you haven't gained much.

Add to that forcing the use of conduit in residential and the whole mess just stinks that much more. And what would be wrong with running RNC for this protection? We can use it to enclose unfused service entrance conductors but it's not safe for enclosing branch circuit conductors ahead of the AFCI device?

As I said, in my opinion this moves the Code farther away from their stated purpose of "Practical Safeguarding". Very little about this whole mess that's practical, and the safeguarding aspect is suspect at best. There's more here about pushing a product (be it AFCI's or EMT) than there is about electrical safety.

 

[infinity]

Lack of reliability is one reason why here in New Jersey we are not required to use AFCI protection.

After reading some of the proposals that might actually make it into the 2008 NEC, there seems to be a dangerous profit driven trend by manufacturers to get their products required by the NEC. Will the CMP's continue to fall for their propaganda?

 

[brian john]

The entire software industry has blazed new paths marketing unfinished / incomplete products.

and then offer an upgrade (fix/repair) at a cost.

 

[donselectric]

i've been saying for years the code is a manufacturers drivin code.
why do you think 90% of the people on the panels are company engineers
and write code to sell their products....it's just like congress voting themselves a raise in pay... no where else does this happen its a joke.....

 

[oldcrow]

I have a lot of respect for the members of the code making panels. They work very hard and drive many safety provisions into new homes. Many lives have been saved due to their actions. We may not like it but the facts speak for themselves. I for one try to go above and beyond their requirements with my customers.

 

[celtic]

I for one try to go above and beyond their requirements with my customers.

How is installing AFCI protection going above and beyond....the technology has NOT been perfected.

 

[oldcrow]

If you are waiting for circuit protection to be perfected, you have a long wait buddy. The knife switch guys said the same thing about the fuse. The fuse boys said the same thing about the thermal mag breakers. The thermal mag breaker boys said the same thing about the branch feeder AFCI. And there are some branch feeder AFCI guys saying the same thing about the combination.

Fact of the matter is that technology continues to advance our society.

I personally have all 15 and 20 amp circuits protected by AFCI in my home. I had one trip during a lightening storm. Then again, I also lost my power to the whole house shortly there after. My family is much safer with these breakers installed. My home is only 2 years old.

My neighbor saw my installation. His house is a 50's home. He too upgraded all 15 and 20 amp circuits to AFCI. We found 4 circuits in his home that were in need of repair. One circuit so bad we had to completely replace with new. We found evidence of arcing in a junction box. The wires were so deteriorated due to moisture and fluctuations in temperature. He was elated to find the problems and fix them. His family is much safer today than they were before the change out.

Most are quick to say no to any change. This is so especially in our industry.

Perfected? No. Was the fuse?